How are we made righteous?

[Van]

I see even more false theology is being spewed forth like from a fire hose.

1) In order to be made righteous, God must transfer us individually into Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration.
2) God's righteousness is obtained by us after we are transferred into Christ. We are not magically "found" in Christ. See point 1.
3) Abraham was never "in Christ" during Abraham's physical lifetime. He had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.
4) Romans 10:3 is non-germane to the issue, when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, He transfers us into Christ.
5) Only those God transfers into Christ are blessed by what he or she does, because they are new creations, created for good works.

 

[Van]

Colossians 2:10-12 (NASB)
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The "body of flesh" refers to the consequence of our sin, and with that consequence (separation from our Holy God) removed we are then united with Christ, made alive together with Christ

 

[Yeshua1]

Colossians 2:10-12 (NASB)
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The "body of flesh" refers to the consequence of our sin, and with that consequence (separation from our Holy God) removed we are then united with Christ, made alive together with Christ

Think that it refers to God circumcising our hearts, IE, regeneration unto salvation!

 

[agedman]

I see even more false theology is being spewed forth like from a fire hose.

1) In order to be made righteous, God must transfer us individually into Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration.
2) God's righteousness is obtained by us after we are transferred into Christ. We are not magically "found" in Christ. See point 1.
3) Abraham was never "in Christ" during Abraham's physical lifetime. He had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.
4) Romans 10:3 is non-germane to the issue, when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, He transfers us into Christ.
5) Only those God transfers into Christ are blessed by what he or she does, because they are new creations, created for good works.

What and who are you accusing of "false theology is being spewed forth like from a fire hose."

Who on the BB are you labeling as being a heretic?

 

[agedman]

I see even more false theology is being spewed forth like from a fire hose.


3) Abraham was never "in Christ" during Abraham's physical lifetime. He had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.

How?

When?

Was such available to all prior to the death of Christ?

From what Scripture do you determine that which you propose in the above statement?

 

[Darrell C]

Hold on, having some trouble with my hose...

No verse or passage says Abraham was declared righteous, not one.

It says that right here...


Romans 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?


The question centers on Abraham in his physical disposition, meaning, it regards to him in the temporal.

But Abraham is who is in view.


2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.


We don't see "...if Abraham's faith were justified by works..."

The conclusion to Paul's point is...


3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Abraham believed God, which was accomplished through faith, and it was accounted unto Abraham...righteousness.

Abraham was credited with righteousness.


4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Paul is not speaking of Abraham specifically here, Van, he is speaking generally. And you can't have faith apart from the one who has faith. I see your point, that those in view here have faith, and that is counted (considered) righteousness, but you can't have one without the other. Does "His faith is righteous but he is not" make sense?

1) Abraham was not declared righteous, his faith was.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.


So we exclude Abraham from Paul's teaching? Not at all. It is the same subject throughout.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

2) The circumcision of Christ is not a figure of speech,

So present your view and your Biblical support for it, be glad to look at it with you.

but the action to remove the sin burden (What God holds against us individually because of sin).

Our sin burden is not removed because we are circumcised spiritually, our sin burden is removed because Christ died for us.

I said...

2. I view the circumcision of Christ to represent, again, a distinction made between the physical and the spiritual. The circumcision of the Old Testament was physical, the circumcision of the New Covenant spiritual. We are "circumcised" by Christ which relates to our relationship with Him and the New Covenant. The question is like asking "why are we born again?" It is a result of the Reconciliation which comes about for us, just as new birth is, and is effected by the eternal indwelling of God. I view new birth as literal, "spiritual circumcision" as a figure of speech which shows the changed heart effected by salvation in Christ.

That it is a figure of speech is fairly easy to understand, seeing we do not have any "spiritual cutting" going on." It is of the heart, and we have a new heart because we are now indwelt by God.

And the washing of regeneration also is not a figure of speech, but the result of being spiritually born anew a new creation, created for good works.

Never said it was, but in fact specifically said...

I view new birth as literal, "spiritual circumcision" as a figure of speech which shows the changed heart effected by salvation in Christ.

God bless.

 

[Van]

Hi Darrel C, I addressed that having faith credited as righteousness to Abraham did not make his righteous, that is why he had to wait for Christ's death to be made perfect.

Therefore your reposting of Roman 4:1-5 is just spewing obfuscation without truth.

Then you repost Romans 4:6-8, which addresses the forgiveness of sins under the old covenant, but not the very different result provided by the Lamb of God's precious blood.

Bottom line, it is false theology to claim Christ's death was not needed to make sinners righteous.

 

[agedman]

Hi Darrel C, I addressed that having faith credited as righteousness to Abraham did not make his righteous, that is why he had to wait for Christ's death to be made perfect.

Therefore your reposting of Roman 4:1-5 is just spewing obfuscation without truth.

Then you repost Romans 4:6-8, which addresses the forgiveness of sins under the old covenant, but not the very different result provided by the Lamb of God's precious blood.

Bottom line, it is false theology to claim Christ's death was not needed to make sinners righteous.

So, having yet answered the questions in post #25, I will further ask, what Scripture you offer to support it is a "false theology to claim Christ's death was not needed to make sinners righteous" and can you give an example of any view supported by a member of the BB to such thinking?

 

[Van]

How? When? Was such available to all prior to the death of Christ?
From what Scripture do you determine

Abraham was never "in Christ" during Abraham's physical lifetime. He had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.

Repeating answered questions is simply obfuscation without truth.
1) No OT saint was transferred into Christ, made righteous, and entered the third heaven until after Christ died. See John 3:13
2) When was Abraham made perfect? After Christ died. See Hebrews 11:39-40.
3) On the day Christ died, at least one sinner entered Paradise and was enrolled in the General Assembly. Everyone one was righteous made perfect, including Abraham. See Luke 23:43, Hebrews 12:23

 

[Van]

So, having yet answered the questions in post #25, I will further ask, what Scripture you offer to support it is a "false theology to claim Christ's death was not needed to make sinners righteous" and can you give an example of any view supported by a member of the BB to such thinking?

Obfuscation without truth. Address the topic. Agedman, you claimed we were declared righteous, rather than made righteous in Him through the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.

All the added English “clarifies” the intent and direction, so, putting the “clarifity” back, the verse basically states “believing the Lord is righteousness.”

Agedman apparently also claims not all of our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrel C, I addressed that having faith credited as righteousness to Abraham did not make his righteous, that is why he had to wait for Christ's death to be made perfect.

Actually you have not, because there is no possible way to deny Abraham was righteous according to his works:


James 2:21-24
King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Nor have you addressed the fact that I distinguished between the temporal imputation of righteousness and being declared righteous through the Shed Blood of Christ.

Nor have you in any way made a case for the notion that we "are not declared righteous."

I guess that is why you did not quote me. Hoping I wouldn't see your response?

Therefore your reposting of Roman 4:1-5 is just spewing obfuscation without truth.

Not at all, its just showing your notion to be unbiblical. Perhaps if you tried to respond to my posts you might understand what I actually said. Of course, you would then have to cede the point, and could not therefore continue to teach what you want to believe.

Then you repost Romans 4:6-8, which addresses the forgiveness of sins under the old covenant, but not the very different result provided by the Lamb of God's precious blood.

Why would I? I was dealing with your teaching...No verse or passage says Abraham was declared righteous, not one.

I have consistently distinguished between atonement in the Old Testament and The Atonement, in this thread as well as any thread I am in.

Bottom line, it is false theology to claim Christ's death was not needed to make sinners righteous.

So quote me even intimating such, so the fact that you offer a false argument based on falsehood about what I have said can be seen.

I dare you, lol.

If you're going to respond to me, quote me so I get an alert. Its pretty apparent you don't want me to know you've said something, and why you wouldn't is pretty clear.


God bless.

 

[agedman]

Obfuscation without truth. Address the topic. Agedman, you claimed we were declared righteous, rather than made righteous in Him through the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.

I showed you the Scripture and YOU acknowledged it .

That you now attempt to dispute what you recently agreed, seems to be you using obfuscation without truth, and not me.

Agedman apparently also claims not all of our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God.

Can you show at what point I even alluded to such a statement?

What I ask, "...what Scripture you offer to support it is a "false theology to claim Christ's death was not needed to make sinners righteous" and can you give an example of any view supported by a member of the BB to such thinking?"

After asking, you avoid the question by attempting to assign some characteristic to me that is unfounded.

But, can you actually give and example of any view supported by a member of the BB to such thinking?

What "false theology (to) claim(s) Christ's death was not needed to make sinners righteous?

Unless you can state such a theology, and then show some member of the board as presenting that as a viable view, then it is a hollow claim at best.

 

[Van]

So, having yet answered the questions in post #25, I will further ask, what Scripture you offer to support it is a "false theology to claim Christ's death was not needed to make sinners righteous" and can you give an example of any view supported by a member of the BB to such thinking?

Yet another off topic post. And failure to address your claim I quoted in post 31.

 

[Van]

No one becomes the righteousness of God through works. All these folks are doing is spewing nonsense.
We were made righteous when God transferred us into Christ. There is no other way.

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Does this verse (James 2:23) say Abraham was made righteous? Nope His faith was credited to him as righteousness.

 

[Yeshua1]

No one becomes the righteousness of God through works. All these folks are doing is spewing nonsense.
We were made righteous when God transferred us into Christ. There is no other way.
Does this verse (James 2:23) say Abraham was made righteous? Nope His faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Not made, declared!

 

[Van]

Colossians 2:10-12 (NASB)
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The "body of flesh" refers to the consequence of our sin, and with that consequence (separation from our Holy God) removed we are then united with Christ, made alive together with Christ

 

[Van]

Not made, declared!

Read Romans 5:19, it says made righteous, not declared righteous.

1) In order to be made righteous, God must transfer us individually into Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration.
2) God's righteousness is obtained by us after we are transferred into Christ. We are not magically "found" in Christ. See point 1.
3) Abraham was never "in Christ" during Abraham's physical lifetime. He had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.
4) When God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, He transfers us into Christ.
5) Only those God transfers into Christ are blessed by what he or she does, because they are new creations, created for good works.

 

[Van]

4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

When we are born anew, we go from being dead in our sins to being alive in Christ. Hence the washing or removal of the consequence of sin by being born anew in Christ, created for good works.

 

[Yeshua1]

Read Romans 5:19, it says made righteous, not declared righteous.

1) In order to be made righteous, God must transfer us individually into Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration.
2) God's righteousness is obtained by us after we are transferred into Christ. We are not magically "found" in Christ. See point 1.
3) Abraham was never "in Christ" during Abraham's physical lifetime. He had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.
4) When God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, He transfers us into Christ.
5) Only those God transfers into Christ are blessed by what he or she does, because they are new creations, created for good works.

We are still sinners with sin natures though, and any righteousness we now have is because God declared us to now be found in Jesus, and in His own righteousness!