The Limited Gospel?

[Darrell C]

In an attempt to keep a thread I started from being derailed, which was an attempt to keep another member's thread from being derailed, this thread looks at the issue of faith as found in the Old Testament Saint.

I will suggest to any that might want to join in this discussion that due to two things, first, an absolute loyalty to Systems of Theology, and secondly, an absolute hatred of Systematic Theologies (which are antagonistic to the System one chooses)...

...the forest is unseen due to the trees.

So let's do a little pruning.

I will begin the discussion with the statement that most people, though trying to "defend" salvation by grace through faith, usually hold to a faith better described as Salvation by Faith through Grace. And it is at its basest core no less a works-based doctrine than the beliefs of those who think James is teaching Eternal REdemption through faith plus works.

Here is the thrust of the argument I present: Abraham, and the Old Testament Saints, were not eternally redeemed through being declared just. The reason? Because their justification was based on what they did.

Not based on the Shed Blood (death) of Christ.

Romans Chapter 4 has to be understood in light of Romans 3, and is an example of men being declared righteous through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus, which is not to be equated with the righteousness of Abraham, declared righteous because he believed God according to Paul, and because his works made his faith perfect according to James.

I will begin with what must be understood before one gets to Romans 4 (and James 2):


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


And I will, in the OP, use one quote from another member (and will then proceed to address other off-topic responses here as well), which may help shed light on the subject matter of the OP:

I have already ceeded that I agree - God did not reveal the full mystery to the OT saints such as he has to the NT saints. There is no argument or disagreement there. The disagreement we have is on whether the very limited version of The Gospel given to Abraham was sufficient to affect salvation or not.

There is actually an argument, because God did not "reveal part of the Mystery" to Old Testament Saints, so what you do essentially is say "I agree" then go on to show that not only do you not agree, you are still trying to argue that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed to Old Testament Saints. Doesn't matter that you qualify that as a partial revelation.

Secondly, the Gospel as found in the Old Testament does not really begin to take shape until the Prophets. We see Christ in the Law, but it is not until the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that we can do that in a context of Redemption.

Third, we will look at your understanding of "The Gospel" as it was given to Abraham, and we will see that the "Good News" Abraham received did not explain to Him that God would manifest in flesh, die in the stead of the sinner, rise from the dead, reconcile men to God, and eternally indwell them that they might forever be His Sons.

So on with the show.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Not an apt analogy, because you know enough about gravity not to step off a building, so you know how it works. And that is an apt description for most of us when we are saved: we don't understand in an in-depth manner, but we know enough to be saved (i.e., we are sinners, headed for eternal judgment, and that Christ died that we might be saved).

Abraham knew he was dead, and knew himself and his wife too old for children, yet God promised that through his progeny all the nations of the earth would be blessed. My argument (and I believe Paul's argument) is that this was enough of The Gospel to qualify Abraham to obtain Christ's righteousness in Christ's redemptive 1:1 exchange. He may not understood all of The Gospel but he understood the parts of it that affected him and believed - enough to be awarded righteousness as a result of his faith.

First, this isn't what I would say on point, because this is the issue we are discussing:

My argument is that UNDERSTANDING THE GOSPEL IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION, only believing the gospel is a necessary prerequisite for righteousness.

So if you are still trying to present that argument, again I will tell you that this is not the case. You can go back and read my responses that have already addressed this point.

Secondly, we can't have both The Mystery of the Gospel (which means it was not revealed util we are told it is revealed)...and the revelation of part of the Gospel.

It's either one or the other.

Abraham was not, as was none of the sons of men, privy to the Mystery of the Gospel. Once you have studied these passages and then apply that to the Gospels...the Gospels will make more sense.

Irrelevant. He didn't need to be privy to everything... he was privy to enough to affect his salvation. God knew what he was talking about when He preached The Gospel of Jesus Christ to him. The fact that he believed God (who was doing the preaching) was sufficient for righteousness and salvation even if Abraham didn't understand the fullness of the Mystery.

How is the fact that that the Mystery of the Gospel was not revealed to the sons of men, which is all inclusive of all men...irrelevant?


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


That means, Gup, that it was not made known unto any man in past Ages, as it clearly states...it is now revealed to His holy Apostles and Prophets.

Abraham was...a Gentile.

The Mystery of Christ was not made known to him, that is what it states clearly.


Continued...

 

[Gup20]

In an attempt to keep a thread I started from being derailed, which was an attempt to keep another member's thread from being derailed, this thread looks at the issue of faith as found in the Old Testament Saint.

I will suggest to any that might want to join in this discussion that due to two things, first, an absolute loyalty to Systems of Theology, and secondly, an absolute hatred of Systematic Theologies (which are antagonistic to the System one chooses)...

...the forest is unseen due to the trees.

So let's do a little pruning.

I will begin the discussion with the statement that most people, though trying to "defend" salvation by grace through faith, usually hold to a faith better described as Salvation by Faith through Grace. And it is at its basest core no less a works-based doctrine than the beliefs of those who think James is teaching Eternal REdemption through faith plus works.

Here is the thrust of the argument I present: Abraham, and the Old Testament Saints, were not eternally redeemed through being declared just. The reason? Because their justification was based on what they did.

Not based on the Shed Blood (death) of Christ.

Romans Chapter 4 has to be understood in light of Romans 3, and is an example of men being declared righteous through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus, which is not to be equated with the righteousness of Abraham, declared righteous because he believed God according to Paul, and because his works made his faith perfect according to James.

I will begin with what must be understood before one gets to Romans 4 (and James 2):


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


And I will, in the OP, use one quote from another member (and will then proceed to address other off-topic responses here as well), which may help shed light on the subject matter of the OP:





There is actually an argument, because God did not "reveal part of the Mystery" to Old Testament Saints, so what you do essentially is say "I agree" then go on to show that not only do you not agree, you are still trying to argue that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed to Old Testament Saints. Doesn't matter that you qualify that as a partial revelation.

Secondly, the Gospel as found in the Old Testament does not really begin to take shape until the Prophets. We see Christ in the Law, but it is not until the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that we can do that in a context of Redemption.

Third, we will look at your understanding of "The Gospel" as it was given to Abraham, and we will see that the "Good News" Abraham received did not explain to Him that God would manifest in flesh, die in the stead of the sinner, rise from the dead, reconcile men to God, and eternally indwell them that they might forever be His Sons.

So on with the show.


God bless.

I actually have no idea what the purpose of this thread is or what argument you're making and why this doesn't have to do with "the mysteries." This IS the mystery that has now been revealed to the saints.

I argued that God didn't need to reveal every last detail of the full mystery of salvation to Abraham because Abraham didn't need to understand the full mystery to be saved (since there was no law, sin is not imputed when there is no law)... he merely needed to believe in any part of the gospel of Jesus Christ so that anyone in the future who believed in the gospel of Jesus Christ would be legally considered "sons of Abraham".

Paul said that Abraham believed "the gospel of Jesus Christ" when God preached that gospel in the words "all the nations will be blessed in you" because God was specifically referencing Jesus in those words (the Gospel of Jesus Christ is just that simple when you boil it down). When Abraham believed this, God gave him Christ's righteousness (Jesus became sin in this great exchange) and then went on to make an everlasting covenant with him that all his spiritual descendants (those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had) would then inherit Christ's righteousness from their spiritual father Abraham.

 

[Darrell C]

Ah... indeed... brain fog. Saved by grace through faith is what I meant to say.

But the sad thing is, Gup...you are teaching salvation by faith through grace.

That is the doctrine you are teaching.

It is a gift, it is not earned.

It is if you disregard that God has always intervened in the lives of men, He initiates salvation in every single account of it in Scripture.

You are placing Abraham's faith and belief that God would give him an heir of his own bowels as the reason for his eternal redemption, and that is not the case. He was, as explained in my previous response...justified according to the flesh through his belief, faith, and works.

He was eternally redeemed by the Shed Blood of Christ (His Death)...alone.

That is the Gift.

God promised salvation to the descendants of Abraham as a gift....

As I have already shown you, God promised the Seed in the Garden:


Genesis 3:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


We can see the Gospel in that statement, but Abraham did not (and I am just going to explain that joke right now, lol: The Pentateuch didn't exist yet).

Nor did Abraham understand that the Seed was Jesus Christ, a Man that was God manifest in the flesh at a future time.

You are imposing into Galations 3 an understanding of those prior to the Revelation of the Mystery of Christ.

they didn't earn it... they just inherit it by being qualified as descendants of Abraham.

My friend, this is not the Gospel.

No man was saved, much less Eternally Redeemed...

...because of their heritage.

We are the sons of God based solely on the Grace and intervention of GOd in the lives of those who could absolutely nothing to be saved.

Nothing.

They could not believe that which God did not reveal.

They could not place faith in a Risen Savior until He died. The disciples didn't, yet you impose this understanding into Abraham who had been told absolutely nothing of the Man Christ Jesus.

I am not a son of Abraham, I am a son of God.

Fortunately Christ made a way whereby we can all be qualified for that inheritance with mere belief.

And there it is, Salvation by Faith through Grace."

Mere belief? Christ died for us, and there is nothing "mere" about that.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I actually have no idea what the purpose of this thread is or what argument you're making and why this doesn't have to do with "the mysteries.

First, the other thread deals, not with the Mysteries revealed in the New Testament, but the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which has to be distinguished from other Mysteries.

Secondly, I hope that by the time we sort out your understanding of the Gospel in relation to those who received the Gospel but did not have the understanding of it revealed to them you will have a better overall understanding of the Faith of Abraham.

This IS the mystery that has now been revealed to the saints.

What is the Mystery?

You can't possibly believe it is now revealed to the Saints and...

...still argue that Paul taught that the Mystery of the Gospel was revealed to Abraham.

You keep saying you believe it then proceed to deny in your own statements that you believe that.

Abraham did not have the Mystery of the Gospel "partially revealed" to him.

Here is you doing that:

I argued that God didn't need to reveal every last detail of the full mystery of salvation to Abraham

That is why we are still discussing it, lol.

The fact is Abraham did not have the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed to Him...at all.

The imputation of righteousness was based on what he did, which was to obey GOd, believe God, and place his faith in God's promises.

That is why he was saved in the eternal perspective, and did not go into torment as unbelievers did, but awaited his Eternal Redemption through the Shed Blood of Jesus Christ.

because Abraham didn't need to understand the full mystery to be saved

Correct, he simply needed to be obedient to what was revealed to him, and that is precisely what he did.

I have already covered all of this, yet here I am having to repeat the same basic truths.



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

(since there was no law, sin is not imputed when there is no law)...

So what...was he saved from? lol

I will first say that "the Law" of God is something God has placed in the hearts of every man coming into the world, so whether the Covenant, or the Pentateuch, were in existence already or not, God's will was not something men could deny knowing.

Secondly, that justification through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus differs from Temporal Justification as we see in Abraham's case when Paul uses him as an illustration of being justified by faith alone:


Romans 5:10-16
King James Version (KJV)

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


Now go back to Romans 3:


Romans 3:20-25
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Abraham's righteousness was temporal, based on what he did...that cannot be denied. That James speaks of temporal justification is also something not considered by most. But, if you understand the distinction Paul makes, then you don't have to get caught up in the Protestant/Catholic error which has had them at each other's throats for five hundred years.

Abraham was saved by grace through faith, just as every man is, but, he was not eternally redeemed because he believed God would provide the heir He said He would.

And he was not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not even partially, as you insist.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

he merely needed to believe in any part of the gospel of Jesus Christ

Is that the Gospel you preach to men, Gup?

"You can believe any part of the Gospel...?"

Why would what Abraham believed and what men today are commanded to believe be any different?

Let me make a point you cannot argue: if salvation was possible simply by believing on the promised Messiah, then guess what, you have just ascribed salvation to all the Jews...

...still waiting for Messiah to come the first time.

Understand the problem there, Gup?

You have just said that "believing part of the Gospel" is acceptable to God, and that one can be saved thus. That is a false gospel, my friend. And again, I don't say this to offend you, but to point out the error in your doctrine.

The fact is that the Jews still awaiting Christ are those who have rejected Jesus Christ, and that has been true for two millennia:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


That is why Israel, as a Nation...is still awaiting Eternal Redemption:


Romans 11:25-28
King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.


You really need to give some thought to ascribing Abraham with a partial knowledge of the Gospel.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

he merely needed to believe in any part of the gospel of Jesus Christ so that anyone in the future who believed in the gospel of Jesus Christ would be legally considered "sons of Abraham".

That's great, but, I will preach Christ crucified (accomplished fact) so that men might be made the sons of God.


1 John 3:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


Being "a son of Abraham" is figurative for the Christian, but being a son of God is...a necessity.


1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


We are born of God, not born of Abraham. Abraham was just a man, though a picture of faith. But we cannot make the picture of faith equal to the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

God is Sovereign in Salvation, and supplies the belief necessary Himself, because our belief (as well as the belief of those who reject Christ) is a result of the Comforter's Ministry, not something that is found within man.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Paul said that Abraham believed "the gospel of Jesus Christ" when God preached that gospel in the words "all the nations will be blessed in you"

And it was Paul, not Abraham, that identified the Gospel preached to Abraham.

You impose an understanding that Paul's teaching disallows.

You then try to buffer that by making Abraham privy to part of the Gospel.

You then thoroughly go off the rails with saying men do not have to understand the Gospel, and...that they can just believe part of the Gospel.

All in an attempt to support your position.

because God was specifically referencing Jesus in those words

We know this, Paul knew this, but Abraham...

...did not.

Read it again, and perhaps you will see that what I am telling you is true.

(the Gospel of Jesus Christ is just that simple when you boil it down).

I agree, the Gospel is very simple.

Let's see Paul define it:


1 Corinthians
15 King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Now, which part would you say men must keep in memory?

When Abraham believed this, God gave him Christ's righteousness

Great, now all you have to do is find Scripture to support that.

You're not going to find it, by the way, because we would then have a contradiction in Paul's teaching.

See above where Paul says he delivered that which he received? He doesn't say keep in memory the Death of Christ, or the burial of Christ, or the Resurrection.

Because it ceases to be the Gospel of Jesus Christ when we leave out that which is critical to the Gospel.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

When Abraham believed this, God gave him Christ's righteousness (Jesus became sin in this great exchange)

No, Christ actually took upon Himself the penalty for our sin.

He did not literally become sin.

And that took place at Calvary, not in Abraham's day.

and then went on to make an everlasting covenant with him that all his spiritual descendants

And that Covenant will be everlasting.

However, that does not change the fact that after the Abrahamic Covenant...God established another Covenant with...the heirs.

And Paul tells us why:


Galatians 3:13-19
King James Version (KJV)

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


A few points to consider:

1. Christ has redeemed "us." Paul includes himself as well as Israel as a Nation (v.13);
2. That the promise of God might come on the Gentiles through...Jesus Christ. Now, before someone gets over-enthusiastic about Gentile Inclusion, keep reading, and you will see Paul again all men, because that is the promise beginning in the Garden, reiterated in Genesis 12, seen in the Law, and fulfilled in the New Covenant (v.14);
3. The promises were made to Abraham and his seed, singular, which is relevant in Abraham's day because he was given...one son (v.16);
4. As mentioned before, this is Paul's commentary to his audience, not an affirmation that Abraham understood that God spoke of Christ (v.16);
5. The promises of God were not nullified when God established another Covenant specific to the promised offspring (said to be as numerous an innumerable as the stars, if you remember, Genesis 15) v.17;
6. The inheritance is not through the Covenant of Law, or, by heritage (v.18);
7. The inheritance is a promise of God (v.18);
8 The Covenant of Law was added because of transgressions...until the Seed should come, or in other words, the receiving of the promise was not fulfilled in either Abraham's Day or under Law.

And we have numerous texts that make that point over and over. The point is made clearly right here in this text:


Galatians 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Do you see, Gup, that the faith of Abraham cannot possibly be the faith of Christ spoken of here? We just saw that while the Covenant of Law did not nullify the Abrahamic Covenant, neither did it contain the possibility that men might be made righteous (v.21).

It clearly states that the faith by which righteousness comes would be revealed afterwards (v.23).

It clearly states there was a time when that faith came, and when it did...

...they were no longer under the (Covenant of) Law.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

(those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had)

...to await Eternal Redemption in Hades.

Simple as that.

Because the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to them, they were under Law, and awaited the day when faith in Christ would liberate them from the Covenant of Law and bring them into relationship with God through the Promised New Covenant.

would then inherit Christ's righteousness from their spiritual father Abraham.

So now you are saying we inherit Christ's righteousness...through Abraham.

C'mon Gup, lol.

And that is all the time I have today, my friend. Don't get mad, just give it some consideration. I am not trying to offend, but, we usually get offended when someone disagrees with what we believe, right?

And I hope you are beginning to see the purpose for this thread.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Okay, this is an issue I will try to explain, because the one thing I want you to understand is that I am not saying that Abraham, and other Old Testament Saints were not saved. They were "saved" by grace through faith alone, which means if we believe that, then we cannot ascribe Abraham's salvation to what he did, we can only ascribe his salvation to what Christ did. This is a little confusing for most, I think, and this is primarily due to the teachings of the Systems of Theology they have adopted.

Faith is not a work. It is distinct from works. In fact, Galatians 3 is the death knell to works-based salvation models,

First, I would point out that not only did I not say faith is a work, I pointed out clearly that salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Now that the false argument is out of the way, I would ask you to reconsider the point being made: salvation is by grace through faith, so, to credit Abraham's faith apart from the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to credit Abraham as being declared righteous on a basis of the faith itself.

And that is not the case.

You are equating salvation in Christ to the justification received by men who had not had the Gospel of Christ revealed to them, and they were not saved by believing part of the Gospel, because there is nothing there for them believe on. They did not understand (just as even the disciples of Christ did not understand) that when Messiah would come that He would not establish temporal redemption, but that in dying in their stead He would redeem them eternally and indwell them eternally. They did not believe (even as the disciples of Christ did not believe) that He would rise from the dead, because they did not know that He would die and thus rise from the dead.

That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That He died in the stead of the sinner that men might be reconciled to God. This took place when He manifested in flesh, died, arose, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter to reveal the Gospel to the hearts of men. No eye had seen, no ear had heard, and it had not entered into the hearts of men the things which God had prepared for them from before the world began.

You can impose understanding in them by misunderstanding what Paul speaks to the Galatians, but it still does not change the fact that Abraham died still in need of Atonement. As I said, if you say Abraham received Atonement prior to the Cross, then you will also have to supply the means for that Atonement.

Eternal Life began when Christ came, and not before:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


John 6:48-53
King James Version (KJV)

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Eternal Life was not given to men in the Old Testament, hence no man prior to the True Bread coming from Heaven can be ascribed as having eternal life.

This is seen throughout the Gospels. Here is one more example:


John 3:13-16
King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Abraham was credited righteousness based on what he did, not eternal life based on what Christ did. His faith brought about justification in a temporal sense, just as even today Christians can be justified in a temporal sense based on their faith and works, but, that is completely separate from being justified freely through the REdemption which is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:20-25
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


As I said before, when we get to Romans 4 Paul is using Abraham as an example of men being justified by grace through faith, but he does not equate that justification with justification by His grace through the Redemption of Jesus Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

and it's model of salvation is Abraham.

Right, lol. A model. Not the reality.

Just as the Tabernacle was not the reality of man coming into God's presence.

Again, look at what Paul states about faith in Christ:


Galatians 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


He is saying that Righteousness should have been by the Law, and he equates that to life. The corollary being...the Law did not give life, it did not give one a righteous standing that is to be equated to the Righteousness of Christ.

Secondly, it states dogmatically that the Faith that is now preached, Faith in Christ...had not come. And did not come through the entire course of the Law. Keep in mind the Law was added due to transgressions, so, the Law covers sin prior to its being established as well.

So we would apply that to Abraham thus: his faith did not preclude the necessity for the establishment of the Law.

And the Law did not preclude the establishing of the New Covenant, which is not the Abrahamic Covenant, but a New Covenant promised by God to those under the (Covenant of) Law, and established on the very Sacrifice of Christ.

I will point out something else that has been ignored:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


What you, and everyone that equates Abraham being declared righteous with being justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus does, is impose the receiving of the Promises in an Age when no-one had yet received them.

They would have to be made perfect (complete) in regards to Remission of Sins before they could be viewed as perfect. That is why the "spirits of just men (Old Testament Saints made perfect by the Sacrifice of Christ retro-actively, after they had died)" are contrasted with the Church of the Firstborn (Hebrews 12:20-24).

So if we say Abraham was justified on an eternal basis, then we must equally say that one can be justified on an eternal basis...apart from the Sacrifice of Christ.

And that is another gospel.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Paul defines how Abraham was justified, which was...according to the flesh, or in other words, the context is temporal, not eternal.

I disagree. The covenant God made with Abraham was eternal. It specifically states as much in scripture:

That is just the nature of the Old Testament. We have manna (physical) contrasted with the True Bread (the reality), we have the True Vine (relationship with God through Christ) contrasted with physical heritage (being born of Israel, the legitimate means of relationship to God under Law), we have the earthly Tabernacle contrasted with the presence of God in Heaven, we have the Temple contrasted with the Body of Christ, the Temple of God in this Age only. We have a brazen serpent contrasted with the Christ lifted up for salvation.

Consider:

Romans 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


In view is physical heritage. And the simple truth we must understand is that salvation has never been through heritage.

Now look at David's commentary on imputed righteousness:


6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.


Now contrast that with the removal of sin and its penalty:


Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


And that is the only provision Abraham had. It was temporal and temporary, and covered sins, but did not take them away.

Not so with the Sacrifice of Christ:


Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


What he is saying is that those who offered up animal sacrifice were never made complete in regards to remission of sins, but, Christ's Sacrifice has made us complete in regards to Remission of Sins...

...forever.

And you take into account that the transgressions under the Law were redeemed by Christ in His death, not before...


Hebrews 9:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Romans 3:25
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


...it becomes very clear we cannot impose the righteousness of Abraham with an eternal value, nor equate it to the Eternal Redemption Christ obtained for us:


Hebrews 9:12-13
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:


Abraham was justified in the temporal sense, he was not justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Nor was this, as popularly taught today, a matter that Abraham was credited with the righteousness of Christ and received the Reconciliation/Atonement in advance. He was made perfect in regards to Remission of Sins when Christ died on the Cross.


Continued...

 

[Van]

Abraham was declared somewhat righteous because his faith in God was credited to him as righteousness. But that did not make him righteous in any way (such as the invention "temporal") Abraham remained a sinner in need of a savior from the wrath of God due to Abraham's sins, past, present and future.

 

[Darrell C]

I disagree. The covenant God made with Abraham was eternal. It specifically states as much in scripture:

Gen 17:7
“I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. (the everlasting covenant is an inheritance)

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Gal 3:14
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

You clump together passages which speak of two different Covenants.

The New Covenant is not the Abrahamic Covenant. If it were...it would not be a New Covenant.

The Abrahamic Covenant is basically a fore-runner of the Everlasting Covenant. The promises given to Abraham (as well as to all mankind in Genesis 3:15) are not nullified by the introduction of a new covenant, as we see with the establishment of the Covenant of Law, they are simply consistent with God's Promises beginning in the Garden.

In other words, those promises to Abraham will be fulfilled, but, you also have to consider what it is that God promised in both Covenants. A primary element of the Abrahamic Covenant is the Seed, right? Now what about the specific Gospel promises given...after the Abrahamic Covenant and the Covenant of Law were established?

Such as an everlasting throne ruled by a son of David, specific to the Tribe of Judah? Was Abraham privy to that?

How about the eternal indwelling of God? Abraham wasn't promised that.

So we can see the Abrahamic Covenant still in effect, it is not nullified by God establishing the New Covenant...it is God adding to the blessings of that Covenant, even as He added and made more complex His original Promise of Redemption).

And I would point one specific promise that still has a literal future fulfillment, and that is the Restoration of the Kingdom unto Israel, which God did not promise to Abraham, because Abraham knew nothing of the Nation God would create through him, nor that they would fall into judgment and be in need of Restoration.

That will be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom, and will be specific to the Tribes of Israel. That is one aspect of the everlasting Covenant God established with Abraham.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Abraham was declared somewhat righteous because his faith in God was credited to him as righteousness. But that did not make him righteous in any way (such as the invention "temporal") Abraham remained a sinner in need of a savior from the wrath of God due to Abraham's sins, past, present and future.

It was very much temporal, Van, just as most of the Old Testament was.

The penalty for sin under Law was physical death, for example.

And just like you and I can be justified in our own lives and this justification applicable to what we do in the body, even so Abraham was justified...in the body.

Not on an eternal basis.

And because he was justified he did not die in a state that would ensure eternal judgment. He went to the Just compartment of Hades, not the place of torment.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

If you look at Galatians 2-4, it speaks quite a bit about the 2 covenants - it defines them as "faith" and as "works of the law." Hebrews defines the two covenants the same way.

Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He says, “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

And you are ascribing the Abrahamic Covenant...as being the New Covenant established through Christ.

Capitalizing the passage doesn't change that error.

"The days are coming" speaks of something that will take place in the future, not something that took place in the past.

Nobody under Law went around saying, "Well I don't have to obey the Law because I am a son of Abraham, hence under the everlasting Covenant God established with Abraham."

Nobody.

Because they knew that God had commanded obedience to the Covenant of Law. How people today can ignore that and try to make the Abrahamic Covenant the New Covenant is simply astounding.

Just as Paul does, contrasting the Law and Faith, even so throughout Hebrews, over and over, the Writer contrasts, not the Law and the Abrahamic Covenant, but the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant.


Continued...

 

[Van]

Assertions without relevant citations are like obfuscation without truth.
Did Abraham physically die? Yes.(Genesis 25:7). Therefore according to your view, he was not righteous temporally.

 

[Darrell C]

The covenant of faith was made with Abraham in Genesis 15-17,

You have the wrong Covenant.

We know that one of them is the Covenant of Law, because Paul is teaching w are no longer under that Covenant:


Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

A few points:


1. While under the Law...the inheritance was still pending. And we know that because no Old Testament Saint...received the Promises (Hebrews 11:13, 39-40);
2. They remained under Law unti the appointed time, which shows...we cannot impose to those under Law the inheritance of the promises;
3. While under Law they were under bondage;
4. Christ came when the fullness of time arrived...not before;
5. Christ ministered under the Law, showing the Covenant of Law was the relevant Covenant in His day before His death;
6. Christ came to redeem men from the Law.
7. We receive the adoption as sons (are born of God and become sons of God) through...

...Christ.

Not Abraham.

Now, the other Covenant in view, is not, as you teach, the Abrahamic Covenant, but the New Covenant:


Galatians 4:23-26
King James Version (KJV)

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


The Covenant of Law is presented as...earthly. The Jerusalem which is above is free (not under bondage). And the Abrahamic Covenant was very much earthly, seen in a physical heir (which again Abraham did not know that the Promise was ultimately the Seed/Christ), and physical descendats and a physical land (which will be fulfilled both in the Millennial Kingdom as well as in the Eternal State).

The Writer of Hebrews (who I think was Paul) also correlates the Jerusalem which is above with the New Covenant:


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Not the Abrahamic Covenant.


Continued...