The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

[Gup20]

Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. 1 Kings 18:37

Indeed God can turn hearts, but this isn't talking about salvation, as this is "turning back" so they were already the chosen people (and it doesn't speak to their initial choosing).

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Jhn 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Gen 12:1-3

Did God just call Abram to be a sheep? Did he just call him out of unbelief unto belief? Did God just call the man Abram to be. of the faith of God?

Gen 12:3
And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

Gal 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”​

So it says "forseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham saying all the nations would be blessed in him." So the kind of gospel it's referring to here is the kind that could 'justify the Gentiles by faith' and when God preached this gospel to Abraham and he believed it, God made him righteous. Note, it doesn't say here that Abraham believed God, but later in Genesis 15 when he does believe God, God counts him as righteous. Nonetheless, the gospel which Gal 3 and Gen 12 are talking about is the gospel sufficient to justify the Gentiles by faith. Romans 4 confirms this.

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. Acts 9:1,2
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.1 Tim 1:13

This passage isn't salient to salvation or faith, however, it seems to indicate faith is necessary for understanding. He was "ignorant" before he had faith. The implication is that once he has faith he will gain understanding. Either way, it's implied and not explicit and not a good example one way or the other.

And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. Acts 9:4-6

Did Jesus, the Son of the living God, just call Saul to be a sheep of his? Did he just call him out of unbelief unto belief? Did Jesus just call Saul be be of the faith of God?

Perhaps it was a calling. Either way, Saul obeyed, which indicated a measure of belief. At this point I'm sure there was little understanding beyond that Jesus was who he claimed to be.

Act 9:20
and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “He is the Son of God.”
22 But Saul kept increasing in strength and confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus by proving that this Jesus is the Christ.​

 

[Darrell C]

Indeed, but that isn't relevant to believing a news report. Total Depravity says we are too depraved for our faith to motivate God. Our depraved hearts don't motivate God, God's promise motivates God. Our depraved hearts believe a mere news report and this qualifies us for human adoption. The adopted descendants of Abraham inherit righteousness, therefore, it isn't our faith which motivates God... it is God's promise which motivates God, and our faith merely qualifies us to inherit that promise or not.

Therefore, our faith simply qualifies us as descendants of Adam and his death, or descendants of Abraham and Christ's righteousness. Either way, we don't need to be regenerated to believe, and we don't need to understand to believe.

Total Depravity isn't relevant to God's efforts toward man, but man's efforts towards God.

All interaction between God and man is always seen as initiated by God, not man. That includes God's interaction with Adam and Eve.

Either way, we don't need to be regenerated to believe,

This is true, because we see several passages that show men have been shown the truth and rejected it apart from regeneration. However, we are still reliant on being shown the truth by God.

and we don't need to understand to believe.

Yes, we have to understand the truth, and that is shown to us by God:


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The Comforter is the Promised Spirit of the Old Testament, and it is His ministry towards unbelievers to bring conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment upon unbelievers, as seen in v.9. We know they are unbelievers because that is what it states.

And the truth being revealed at this time is the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And as shown before, men will be held to a higher degree of punishment for rejecting that which God is revealing to them...


Hebrews 10:28-29
King James Version (KJV)

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


...because it is God Himself directly communicating truth to men in His convicting ministry.


God bless.

 

[agedman]

Great. All you have to do is show me where I am wrong on any point.

You can't even do that with this one.

You have added to the Word of God to support the ludicrous notions you have presented, and all of this...because you can't address the issues. I am very sorry for you, and sorry that it takes a little chain yanking, but, you will address the points or be subject to the dubious focus of my humor.

Your choice.

One last try.

The preferred translation I generally use is the NASB, but you seem to reject that source as if I were the one adding to the Scriptures. So, I posted from multiple translations with a note at the bottom about the 2000 KJV and showed the consistency of the matter.

It is for other readers that here is Ephesians 3 taken from the KJV.

I have bolded that which sustains what I have presented. That the mystery was not the gospel, but that the mystery hidden from the ancients was the delivery of the Gospel to the Gentiles - the formation of assemblies of Gentiles and Jews into the Church.

1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you:

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote before in few words,

4By which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7Of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in him.

13Therefore I desire that you faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.​

The presentation of the mystery being the gospel itself stands against the teaching of Scriptures.

Such teaching is the doctrine of men and carries the agenda of human thinking and not that of the Scriptures.

It was not the gospel that was hidden it was WHO, the church (the Gentiles grafted into the true Israel - believers from the ancients, as Romans 11 states) that was the mystery.

 

[Darrell C]

One last try.

We'll see. I think perhaps I can goad your pride enough to draw you back into the conversation.

The preferred translation I generally use is the NASB, but you seem to reject that source as if I were the one adding to the Scriptures.

I don't reject the NASB, lol, I just don't overlook translational insertions and I definitely do not try to argue a point based on an insertion, or, in other words...

...something added to the Word of God.

So, I posted from multiple translations with a note at the bottom about the 2000 KJV and showed the consistency of the matter.

Right. You are forced to offer a proof text over and over to support your doctrine.

Thanks for getting that out of the way.

I have bolded that which sustains what I have presented. That the mystery was not the gospel,

At this point you offer all kinds of definitions for what the mystery is:

That the mystery was not the gospel, but that the mystery hidden from the ancients was the delivery of the Gospel to the Gentiles - the formation of assemblies of Gentiles and Jews into the Church.

...and...

That the mystery was not the gospel, but that the mystery hidden from the ancients was the delivery of the Gospel to the Gentiles - the formation of assemblies of Gentiles and Jews into the Church.

...and...

agedman said: ↑
What is the mystery?

That the gospel was to the Gentiles, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, fellow partakers of the promise.

...and...

agedman said: ↑
the "mystery" was that which is commonly referred to as the "church age.

...and...

agedman said: ↑
the "mystery" was that which is commonly referred to as the "church age." That time in which the Gentiles are given the Scriptures to carry to all nations

Make up your mind...your readers are getting confused.




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote before in few words,

4By which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Right: the mystery revealed to Paul was...

...the Mystery of Christ.

Not...

That the mystery was not the gospel, but that the mystery hidden from the ancients was the delivery of the Gospel to the Gentiles - the formation of assemblies of Gentiles and Jews into the Church.

...and...

That the mystery was not the gospel, but that the mystery hidden from the ancients was the delivery of the Gospel to the Gentiles - the formation of assemblies of Gentiles and Jews into the Church.

...and...

agedman said: ↑
What is the mystery?

That the gospel was to the Gentiles, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, fellow partakers of the promise.

...and...

agedman said: ↑
the "mystery" was that which is commonly referred to as the "church age.

...and...

agedman said: ↑
the "mystery" was that which is commonly referred to as the "church age." That time in which the Gentiles are given the Scriptures to carry to all nations

Make up your mind...your readers are getting confused.




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

That the mystery was not the gospel, but that the mystery hidden from the ancients was the delivery of the Gospel to the Gentiles -

Just not seen in the text. While Gentiles would receive the Gospel, and Paul would preach Christ among the Gentiles, the Mystery is the Gospel of Jesus Christ and all that entails.

And it was for all men to receive:


Ephesians 3:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Why do you want to deny such clear statements of the Word of God?

The fellowship of the Mystery is the result of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...eternal indwelling. Paul also makes that point here...


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


What part of...


26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

...are you not understanding?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

That the mystery was not the gospel, but that the mystery hidden from the ancients was the delivery of the Gospel to the Gentiles - the formation of assemblies of Gentiles and Jews into the Church.

And how is that accomplished?

Through the Gospel of Jesus Christ being revealed unto men.

Not sure why you want to impose this into the Old Testament as common knowledge, particularly when you cannot show the first person who believed on the Risen Savior prior to Pentecost.

And you are welcome to look through even Christ's Own disciples...who forsook the Lord:


John 16:28-33
King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Read your Bible, my friend.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

9And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This is not the KJV, this is...


Ephesians 3:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


And I have emphasized the simple truth you reject.

It is stated over and over in Paul's teaching of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now your own translation states this as well, where we see you do not even heed what you yourself have emphasized:

9And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Now lets emphasize your supposed KJV thus...

9And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

...and that same truth you reject is still very clear.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Do you understand what he is saying"

"To the intent that the manifold Wisdom of God might be known through the Church."

Here is the NASB:


Ephesians 3:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.


When did the Church begin, my friend? When did they start making know the manifold wisdom of God?

When you can honestly answer that according to Biblical Doctrine you will be well on your way to shedding light on the System you have embraced.


Continued...

 

[agedman]

It would be wise for me to not engage in this thread for a bit, because it is most evident from the responding posts that those who do not have much wisdom to bring when it comes to veracity and much less when it comes to discerning the Scripture conformity, yet have the audacity to consistently present what is not Scriptural and in defense of their self generated human thinking demean the Scriptural presentation that others bring, have shut down wisdom and no longer able to be engaged.

Such a condtion is most alarming and certainly disappointing.

Any reader with a simpleton's level of comprehension when reading this thread will see the consistency of the Scriptures brought by those of us who know the truth as compared to others who have merely sought either knowingly or unknowingly to deflect the exposure of their own error in hope that such not be demonstrated as so very wrong.

When folks turn to mockery, demeaning, and other contrivances that knowingly or unknowingly are use to deflect the failure of their own view as being defective, the time to end the conversation is near.

 

[Darrell C]

The presentation of the mystery being the gospel itself stands against the teaching of Scriptures.

Sorry, it is only you standing against the Scriptures.

Cast off your shackles, my friend.

Such teaching is the doctrine of men and carries the agenda of human thinking and not that of the Scriptures.

Kind of hard to ignore what Scripture teaches, its right there for you to embrace:


Ephesians 3:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

It was not the gospel that was hidden it was WHO, the church

And that is borderline heresy.

You replace the Gospel with the Church, and then speak of others teaching the doctrines of men.

Sad.

It was not the gospel that was hidden it was WHO, the church (the Gentiles grafted into the true Israel - believers from the ancients, as Romans 11 states) that was the mystery.

You make salvation mean becoming one with Israel, when in fact it is becoming one with God:


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


"The hope of glory" refers to another Mystery, that is, the Mystery of the Rapture.

In view is the ultimate fulfillment of our salvation in Christ, accomplished through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is...everlasting union with God, glorified as our Lord was.

It's right there for you to embrace.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

It would be wise for me to not engage in this thread for a bit,

I would agree. You need to take some time to study the Word of God apart from the doctrines you seek to impose into it, and recognize the simple truths you are currently blind to.

And understand, until you address the points raised to you, you will not be allowed to come into this thread and disrupt it with reiterations of the same arguments answered already. So as long as you seek to simply preach our doctrines of men on this thread, your doctrine will be ridiculed, because you leave me no other recourse...

...but humor.

And its quite all right with me if I am the only one that understands the humor, also.





God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

because it is most evident from the responding posts that those who do not have much wisdom to bring when it comes to veracity and much less when it comes to discerning the Scripture conformity,

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. The entire point is to get you to acknowledge these simple truths.

You simply cannot deny the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, except to yourself.


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

yet have the audacity to consistently present what is not Scriptural

The Scripture I present speaks for itself:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

and in defense of their self generated human thinking demean the Scriptural presentation that others bring,

That is the problem, you are not bringing a "Scriptural Presentation."

You are bringing the doctrines of men generated by a System of Theology that holds your loyalty more than does the Word of GOd.

If that offends you, I am truly sorry, but that is how I see it.

have shut down wisdom and no longer able to be engaged.

I've got you changing your definition of the Mystery, don't I?

Such a condtion is most alarming and certainly disappointing.

On the contrary, some people have no idea how rude they are until someone is rude to them,lol.

And then its just terrible...how some people treat others.

Any reader with a simpleton's level of comprehension when reading this thread will see the consistency of the Scriptures brought by those of us who know the truth

Who is "us?"

And your rejection of very simple statements of truth taken from Scripture deny you are correct about this.

as compared to others who have merely sought either knowingly or unknowingly to deflect the exposure of their own error

Not something you can say about me, lol. I have addressed every point you have raised and you have yet to address even a few of my own.

It is because you cannot, and we both know that.

Now, if you want to put your pride on the backburner and actually engage in the discussion, you are welcome to.

You can start here:


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


You are ignoring everything in vv.2-5 which make it clear...

1. The Mystery was made known to Paul by Revelation (v.3);
2. The revealed Mystery is The Mystery of Christ (which is synonymous with the Mystery of the Gospel), v.4);
3. The Mystery was not made known in other Ages (v.5);
4. The Mystery was not made known to any man, as "the sons of men" is all inclusive of mankind, it does not distinguish between Jew and Gentile (v.5);
5. The Mystery is now revealed to the holy Apostles and Prophets of Paul's Day by the Spirit, and that Spirit is of course the promised Spirit of the Old Testament, promised by the Father and taught of by Christ (Acts 1:4-5)...the Comforter (v.5);
6. That though Gentile Inclusion is mentioned in v.6 you overlook the fact that the Jews had not received the promise, nor had the Old Testament Saints (Hebrews 11:13; 39-40), and that they too were in Paul's day receiving those promises.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

in hope that such not be demonstrated as so very wrong.

I have shown your errors, and they are many.

You would have to address my points before you could make such a claim.

When folks turn to mockery,

...or humor.

, demeaning,

Point it out.

Did I not say you added to the Word of God?

Did you not do that?

Or do you think translational insertions are "wisdom?"

and other contrivances that knowingly or unknowingly are use to deflect the failure of their own view as being defective,

You cannot charge the first instance of deflection.

Your arguments have been addressed, some of them several times, and only those arguments can be viewed as deflection.

You simply won't address what is clearly taught.

The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to men in past Ages:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

the time to end the conversation is near.

But it hasn't been a conversation.

It's been you making assertions without supporting them, and completely ignoring what I have said. Completely ignoring what is clearly stated in Scripture and trying to redefine the Mystery of the Gospel...

...several times.

The fact is that you have no idea what the Mystery of the Gospel is, and you will not let the Scriptures tell you. You would rather defend your own pride than simply admit...you are in error.

But this I know, you will be more careful of making assertions in the future, or, all of this is in vain.

So address the points raised to you, or, go back to some other thread. This is a serious topic and critical to a proper understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and how it relates to this unique and distinct Age in mankind's history.


God bless.

 

[Gup20]

Okay, this is an issue I will try to explain, because the one thing I want you to understand is that I am not saying that Abraham, and other Old Testament Saints were not saved. They were "saved" by grace through faith alone, which means if we believe that, then we cannot ascribe Abraham's salvation to what he did, we can only ascribe his salvation to what Christ did. This is a little confusing for most, I think, and this is primarily due to the teachings of the Systems of Theology they have adopted.

Faith is not a work. It is distinct from works. In fact, Galatians 3 is the death knell to works-based salvation models, and it's model of salvation is Abraham.

Paul defines how Abraham was justified, which was...according to the flesh, or in other words, the context is temporal, not eternal.

I disagree. The covenant God made with Abraham was eternal. It specifically states as much in scripture:

Gen 17:7
“I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. (the everlasting covenant is an inheritance)

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Gal 3:14
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

If you look at Galatians 2-4, it speaks quite a bit about the 2 covenants - it defines them as "faith" and as "works of the law." Hebrews defines the two covenants the same way.

Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He says, “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.​

The covenant of faith was made with Abraham in Genesis 15-17, whereas the covenant of "works of the Law" was made with Moses on Mt. Sainai. Yet, God calls Abraham's covenant the "eternal covenant." In fact, one of the major arguments Paul makes in Galatians 3 is that you cannot apply tenets of covenant of The Law to the covenant of faith. It goes on to say that the covenant of faith was made 430 years before the covenant of the law, and that the covenant of faith was ratified and once ratified you can't add conditions to the covenant. This means that the tenets of the covenant of The Law have no bearing on the covenant of faith because the covenant of faith was ratified 430 years before the law was given.

Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

So we see that this is the death knell to works-based salvation. It shows that the covenant of faith pre-dated The Law by 430 years and was ratified, thereby demonstrating that the covenant of faith has always, and does now exist outside of and apart from The Law. Yet, The Law has never existed alone and was meant to turn people back to the original covenant of faith.

Gal 3:24
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.​

Continued...

 

[Gup20]

...

James 2:15-17
We know salvation cannot be obtained through the works of the Law, and James even makes the point that the Law must be kept perfectly, else one comes into condemnation under the Law. Here we see that it is physical activity being described, which is, just like Paul's teachings, according to the flesh.

I agree. Though I would say that works demonstrates whether or not a person has true faith. It justifies or qualifies the faith as genuine. It is not to say that works earns salvation, but rather that works are evidence of real faith.

James 2:20-24
What the text teaches, as does Romans 4, is that Abraham was justified in a temporal and physical sense, meaning, that God declared him righteous from a temporal perspective. Not an eternal perspective.

Yet it is the faith alone apart from works that makes one righteous or saves them. For example, see how Abraham was made righteous for his faith in Genesis 15 years before Isaac was born. This passage in James shows how that faith was truely the right kind of faith, but Abraham still obtained the righteousness long before Isaac was born (not after demonstrating his faith was real by his works). This is why Paul makes the point in Romans 4:11 that Abraham was righteous before being circumcised, not after being circumcised (which again was many years before offering Isaac on the altar as mentioned in James 2.20-24).

And this is how the Old Testament Saint was saved, because being justified by God for their faith, belief, and works, they were extended the same grace that even Gentiles received when they performed the works of the Law written on their hearts.

No man comes to the Father except by Jesus. The OT saints included. Yet they were saved and did have faith.

In fact, the Bible makes clear that Jesus Himself could not be raised from the dead except that He also had faith in the gospel. In fact, we can have full assurance that this salvation works because Jesus did it... he was raised from the death by believing the gospel, thereby demonstrating its truth.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,​

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
​

It begs the question: why would God be making a covenant for salvation through faith TO Jesus Christ?

Hebrews 1:4
having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

Romans 6:5
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

1Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

Colossians 1:18
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Hebrews 6:12
so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself,

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.​

 

[Darrell C]

Faith is not a work. It is distinct from works. In fact, Galatians 3 is the death knell to works-based salvation models, and it's model of salvation is Abraham.



I disagree. The covenant God made with Abraham was eternal. It specifically states as much in scripture:

Gen 17:7
“I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. (the everlasting covenant is an inheritance)

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Gal 3:14
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

If you look at Galatians 2-4, it speaks quite a bit about the 2 covenants - it defines them as "faith" and as "works of the law." Hebrews defines the two covenants the same way.

Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He says, “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.​

The covenant of faith was made with Abraham in Genesis 15-17, whereas the covenant of "works of the Law" was made with Moses on Mt. Sainai. Yet, God calls Abraham's covenant the "eternal covenant." In fact, one of the major arguments Paul makes in Galatians 3 is that you cannot apply tenets of covenant of The Law to the covenant of faith. It goes on to say that the covenant of faith was made 430 years before the covenant of the law, and that the covenant of faith was ratified and once ratified you can't add conditions to the covenant. This means that the tenets of the covenant of The Law have no bearing on the covenant of faith because the covenant of faith was ratified 430 years before the law was given.

Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

So we see that this is the death knell to works-based salvation. It shows that the covenant of faith pre-dated The Law by 430 years and was ratified, thereby demonstrating that the covenant of faith has always, and does now exist outside of and apart from The Law. Yet, The Law has never existed alone and was meant to turn people back to the original covenant of faith.

Gal 3:24
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.​

Continued...

Gup, I appreciate the time you have spent in this, but, this is not a thread to discuss faith.

I have addressed your views and if you want to respond to that address, great, but I am not going to waste pages of this thread in off-topic issues. I would suggest you start a thread of your own where that will be the topic. And if you would like to use my responses to your views in that thread I will respond to them as I get time.

But, I will not spend time trying to have a conversation where only one person is doing the talking. A discussion involves responding to your antagonist, not just ignoring what they have said and continuing to seek to teach your doctrine. So you are going to haev to address my responses before I am going to continue in the discussion, because that is the only way it is going to qualify as a discussion.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Faith is not a work. It is distinct from works. In fact, Galatians 3 is the death knell to works-based salvation models, and it's model of salvation is Abraham.

Its a false argument. I did not say faith was a work, I said this is something that is attributed to Abraham, not to Christ.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

...



I agree. Though I would say that works demonstrates whether or not a person has true faith. It justifies or qualifies the faith as genuine. It is not to say that works earns salvation, but rather that works are evidence of real faith.



Yet it is the faith alone apart from works that makes one righteous or saves them. For example, see how Abraham was made righteous for his faith in Genesis 15 years before Isaac was born. This passage in James shows how that faith was truely the right kind of faith, but Abraham still obtained the righteousness long before Isaac was born (not after demonstrating his faith was real by his works). This is why Paul makes the point in Romans 4:11 that Abraham was righteous before being circumcised, not after being circumcised (which again was many years before offering Isaac on the altar as mentioned in James 2.20-24).



No man comes to the Father except by Jesus. The OT saints included. Yet they were saved and did have faith.

In fact, the Bible makes clear that Jesus Himself could not be raised from the dead except that He also had faith in the gospel. In fact, we can have full assurance that this salvation works because Jesus did it... he was raised from the death by believing the gospel, thereby demonstrating its truth.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,​

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
​

It begs the question: why would God be making a covenant for salvation through faith TO Jesus Christ?

Hebrews 1:4
having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

Romans 6:5
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

1Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

Colossians 1:18
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Hebrews 6:12
so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself,

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.​

You have basically ignored the thrust of my assertion, which was the justification of Abraham is confined to a temporal aspect, that it is according to the flesh, not an eternal context dealing with Eternal Redemption.

And you have also ignored another basic element of Promise, and that is Promise being given (by God) and Promise being fulfilled:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Just to point a couple promises not received by the Old Testament Saint, we could start with Remission of Sins through Jesus Christ. We could also include Reconciliation. We could also include the Promised Spirit and Eternal Indwelling.

My suggestion, Gup, would be to take another look at Faith and Justification, because these are issues which have been heavily confused by the "fathers" of the Church.

What is worse is that because of that confusion, most believe we are saved by faith through grace alone.


If you do start a thread and quote me, please address all the issues raised, not just those you think you can address, because it is the sum of the arguments that brings to bear the simple truth that men were not Eternally redeemed through the provision God gave men in the Old Testament Eras, which is vicarious animal death.


God bless.