The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

[Darrell C]

There has only ever been one way of salvation.

That is true, however, the salvation of the Old Testament Saint was retroactive in regards to Eternal Salvation:


Hebrews 9:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Also stated here:


Romans 3:20-25
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


That is why Paul says "us" here...


Romans 5:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Of course he was still waiting; Christ had not come until that moment! But his faith was in the Christ that should come.

And I am not arguing that people were not awaiting Christ, which was made clear in my post. Did you read it? I point out that the Father revealed to them that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but...

...Peter still rejected the Gospel.

You ignore the point: Israel, and mankind as a whole...still awaited redemption, it had not taken place in advance of the Cross as popularly taught today.

It was retroactive for the Old Testament Saints.

If you mean responding to every point you have made, then no. I have a book review to write.
If you want responses you need to be more concise. Sorry!

And that is what I asked you not to do, simply jump into the thread, make assertions, then refuse to address the responses by saying you had something to do.

I don't know how I can be more succinct than to ask, again, for you to respond to these points:


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


You are ignoring everything in vv.2-5 which make it clear...

1. The Mystery was made known to Paul by Revelation;
2. The revealed Mystery is The Mystery of Christ (which is synonymous with the Mystery of the Gospel);
3. The Mystery was not made known in other Ages;
4. The Mystery was not made known to any man, as "the sons of men" is all inclusive of mankind, it does not distinguish between Jew and Gentile;
5. The Mystery is now revealed to the holy Apostles and Prophets of Paul's Day by the Spirit, and that Spirit is of course the promised Spirit of the Old Testament, promised by the Father and taught of by Christ (Acts 1:4-5)...the Comforter.
6. That though Gentile Inclusion is mentioned in v.6 you overlook the fact that the Jews had not received the promise, nor had the Old Testament Saints (Hebrews 11:13; 39-40), and that they too were in Paul's day receiving those promises.


Should you take up the challenge, perhaps you will see that your position cannot be sustained.


God bless.

 

[Van]

Righteousness is not a quantity... you can't be partially righteous. You are either righteous or a sinner. It is one or the other. The just wages of sin is death. James said if you violate one part of the law, you are guilty of the whole law. This is why Galatians 3:21 says that if a law had been given which could impart life, then indeed, righteousness would have been based on the law.

Consider this mental exercise: if you commit murder, and you go to the judge and say "but look at the rest of my life... I admit to premeditated murder, but I've never committed another crime in my life" the judge will convict and sentence you based on the prescribed punishment for the guilt of the murder. Following other laws on other topics does not make you "not guilty" of the murder.

Think of righteousness are a lack of indebtedness. Because we are in a sinful state, God holds something against us, like a debt that must be paid. When that debt is paid, then we are righteous, justified, no longer in debt. We can never pay our "sin debt" because all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags, if we are unsaved. If God makes a partial payment, i.e. credits our faith in Christ as righteousness to our account, we are still not righteous.

Abraham was not declared righteous, his faith was credited to him as righteousness. The only way anyone is made righteous from their "sinful state" is through the blood of Christ.

 

[Darrell C]

I think a more important question is: What is the significance of 'the Mysteries' to you and why are you on about them?

The significance is something I have been preaching on this forum for years, my friend, and still it is an issue that raises criticism instead of agreement.

That significance is that Eternal Redemption was accomplished by Christ on the Cross, and not a day before.

That significance is that salvation on an eternal basis is found only in Jesus Christ, and in no other way.

That significance is that most Christians learn, and teach...the provision of the Law, and that which went before it, as equally capable of producing Eternal Redemption as the Cross of Christ is.

That is why I "go on about them."

What motivates you to hold them so sacrosanct?

Because of the sacred nature of the Gospel.

Isn't that obvious to every believer?

I've always viewed them as "stuff they didn't used to know... now God has revealed it and filled in the details

No, actually you haven't, because this...

How could this have been a mystery when God told them all along the descendants inheriting the everlasting covenant would be counted from a multitude of nations?

...is what you state right before claiming you've always "viewed them as "stuff they didn't used to know... now God has revealed it and filled in the details."

The two are completely opposite.

I've always viewed them as "stuff they didn't used to know... now God has revealed it and filled in the details." Pretty much the New Testament.

Shall we call the elements of the Gospel...stuff? lol

But you are correct about one thing, it is pretty much the New Testament. We have to wonder why so many people can read the New Testament and completely miss the truths that I go "on about," such as Eternal Redemption being accomplished by Christ and applied retroactively to the Old Testament Saint; that men were not born again in the Old Testament; that Abraham's accreditation of righteousness was in a temporal context, because he would be eternally redeemed by Christ when He died on the Cross.

The reason why most do not see that is because they have to make Scripture conform to their adopted Systems of Theology.

And we see some amazing presentations when people try to defend their systems instead of simply exegeting truth from the Scriptures.

That is why you say two opposite things one after the other, and it doesn't really occur to you that they are in conflict one with another.

The mysteries are no longer a mystery because it's been spelled out in the New Testament.

Correction: the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is no longer a Mystery...to the initiated.

Only those who respond to the ministry of the Comforter and turn in faith to Christ understand.

Those unbelievers who continue in unbelief, though shown the Truth, and commanded to obey the Way of Righteousness, who reject the Truth...will fall back into blindness, and their blindness will be made worse than before, because now they will not just simply cater to their fallen flesh, they will add to that the sin of rebellion against God, Who has Himself spoken to the heart of that individual.

So I see it as necessary, Gup, to go on about these things because its important to me that the Word of God be conveyed properly, rather than tossed about the field like a hackey-sack for each member to kick around.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Think of righteousness are a lack of indebtedness. Because we are in a sinful state, God holds something against us, like a debt that must be paid.

While I agree for the most part in what you say, one thing I will say I disagree with is the concept that "God is holding something against us."

Man's condition is that, due to the Fall, man is now conceived and born separated from God. It is not God's fault we are separated from Him, it is Adam's fault.

And just the opposite is true, rather than "holding something against us," God in His grace overlooks that condition we are in and He makes the effort to remedy that condition, and has done so throughout man's existence.

He first provides a means by which men do not have the penalty for their sin (death) exacted on them when they commit it...animal sacrifice.

But He didn't stop there, because at the appointed time He came to us to take upon Himself the penalty we owe.

Nothing in that contributes to a concept of God "holding something against us.

Paul makes the statement here:


Romans 3:24-25
King James Version (KJV)

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Not only did He not hold it against us, but He knew all along He would pay the debt.

In short, we cannot view, in my opinion, God's grace in a light of it is He holding something over us. That is reminiscent of those who argue "If God were a loving God He would not allow bad things to happen to people." The fact is, bad things happen to people, good and bad, not because God caused it, or failed to prevent it, but because that is the consequence of sin. And before we say "God could have prevented that from happening," we better digest the grace He has shown in not simply exacting the penalty for death and sending all men to Hell.

No man will stand before God and say "But, I didn't know your will, its not fair that you should send me into eternal separation!" Because God has always made provision for men to be spared eternal separation.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Remember - I'm not saying Jesus sinned, but rather that he had all of our sin laid upon him:

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—

Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.​

Christ emptied Himself of His fullness to become a man. He also became obedient to death – remember death comes after sin and is the just punishment (wage) for sin. Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified on a cross (on a tree). Remember He said He could call 12 legions of angels to come and protect Him (Matthew 26:53), but He allowed Himself to be taken and killed. Through crucifixion on a tree (a cross), He became a curse for us (remember also the sky turned dark at His death). The sin laid upon Him caused God to look away from Him and forsake Him. I am not saying that Jesus sinned, but rather that He became sin and Abraham became righteous in this great, redemptive exchange. Some might object – “But that would mean that Jesus, cursed and sin-filled, couldn’t lift Himself out of hell. He would be stuck there!” Yes. That is true. That was quite the leap of faith on Jesus’ part, wasn’t it? Do you recall when Moses lifted up the bronze serpent that all who looked upon it were healed?

Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”​

That was a type and shadow for Christ. Christ became sin (represented by the serpent) on that cross – our sin. Those who look upon this sacrifice will be healed. Healing is what Christ came do. Jesus was fully God, but he was also fully man. As fully man, when God laid the sin of the world upon him on that cross, he contained in his flesh the fullness of our sin. As such, he no longer had any righteousness in and of himself.



In order for the "exchange" to occur, we were credited with Jesus' righteousness and Jesus was credited with our sin. Otherwise, no redemption for sin took place, and the sin is still unjustified. At some literal point, God has to see us as righteous and God had to see Christ as sin-filled.

Mar 15:34
At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” which is translated, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”​

What would cause God to turn away from and forsake Jesus? He died under the curse, he had our iniquity laid upon him. Without God's promise that he would inherit his own righteousness again through faith in the gospel, Jesus was lost. Or do you suppose that, because he hadn't sinned, he could simply take up his own righteousness again? If that was the case, as soon as he did, we would take up again our sin. There were no refunds in the Great Exchange! Jesus proved salvation by grace through faith works by becoming the first raised "through the blood of the eternal covenant" (the covenant given to Abraham in Genesis 15-17). He is the firstborn of the dead - the first in THE resurrection. He did it the same way we are expected to do it. What spectacular confidence we can have in this way of salvation because of that. This is the only legal way it can happen... otherwise God is pulling righteousness out of thin air and there is no justice for sin.

Consider also this is the mechanism for eternal life in the resurrection:

Romans 8:3
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.​

God condemns sin in the flesh. In a manner of speaking, our sin is banished from our spirit and exiled to our flesh (remember if Christ is in you, the spirit is alive, and the flesh is dead). Our spirit then is a righteous, inner man (as Paul described a couple of verses prior in Romans 7). The Bible says our condemned, sinful, outer flesh, however, fulfills the requirement of The Law. I suggest to you that there are two ways to “fulfill” the law. The first way (the way Jesus did it) was to keep the law perfectly and never sin and be qualified as righteous. The second way, however, is to break the law and then suffer the penalty for breaking the law (the wages of sin is death). In both circumstances, the law is fulfilled.
Does this leave us without a body for the rest of eternity? Paul talks about resurrection of the body in 1 Corinthians 15.

1Corinthians 15:35
But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”
[[verses 36-41 talk about a seed first dying and being buried in the ground before it changes into another form – the form of the plant which looks different from the seed]]
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

Paul makes an important point at the end of 1 Corinthians 15. This idea of the flesh fulfilling the law on behalf of the spirit (which was infused with the righteousness of Christ through kinship with Abraham in order to “survive” the death of the body) is the mechanism whereby death is finally destroyed by God.

1Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

1Corinthians 15:54
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55 “O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;​

Romans 6:5
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Romans 7:1
Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.​

So by our bodies dying, and our righteous spirit living on in the absence of the body, when the body is resurrected at the last trumpet, it will never be subject to sin and death again, for it will have already fulfilled that law by dying and once it's fulfilled the law, it is no longer subject to it.

Jesus still remained fully God though, correct? Did not empty Himself of His deity?

 

[Van]

[Edited by Van] While I agree for the most part in what you say, one thing I will say I disagree with is the concept that "God is holding something against us."

And just the opposite is true, rather than "holding something against us," God in His grace overlooks that condition we are in and He makes the effort to remedy that condition, and has done so throughout man's existence.

In short, we cannot view, in my opinion, God's grace in a light of it is He holding something over us.

Think of righteousness are a lack of indebtedness. Because we are in a sinful state, God holds something against us, like a debt that must be paid.

Colossians 2:13-14 " When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

 

[Darrell C]

Think of righteousness are a lack of indebtedness. Because we are in a sinful state, God holds something against us, like a debt that must be paid.

Colossians 2:13-14 " When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

It wasn't God holding sin against them:


Romans 5:12-13
King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.



Acts 17:29-31
King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


As I said, His forebearance is a more prominent truth than the idea that God is holding "it" against us.

The fact is that God, Who is great in mercy, can forebear better with the sin of man than a parent can forebear with a child who, like as we, commits sins, not always because it is intentional, but because it is simply the only recourse they have.

And again, God has given opportunity in every Age for men to be able to come into obedience to His will.

Think of the judge sentencing the murderer. He isn't "holding it against him," he is simply doing his job. So too with sin, which is a result of our separation from God, the penalty is not imposed because God wants to, but because it is simply the penalty for sin, just as death is the result of many cancers.

Now, do you have anything to add concerning the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

I will transfer the responses of any more posts concerning Justification to "The Limited Gospel?"


God bless.

 

[Van]

Think of righteousness as a lack of indebtedness. Because we are in a sinful state, God holds the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, that must be paid. That debt is not paid by crediting our worthless faith as righteousness, the debt was paid by the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ, and removed from us when we were made righteous by the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.

By the numbers:
1) The gospel of Christ was mentioned in the Old Testament, but not presented clearly, thus the gospel of Christ had been a mystery within the Old Testament.
2) But in the New Testament, the Gospel of Christ was presented clearly, and is no longer a mystery to those who accept what scripture says rather than rewrite it according to some man-made doctrine.
3) Part of the Gospel is we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.
4) Part of the Gospel is we were made righteous through the blood of Christ
5) Part of the Gospel is Christ died for all mankind, a truth partially revealed in the Old Testament.

 

[Darrell C]

1) The gospel of Christ was mentioned in the Old Testament, but not presented clearly, thus the gospel of Christ had been a mystery within the Old Testament.

It was presented clearly. What wasn't given was an understanding of what was presented.

This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ...



Isaiah 53
King James Version (KJV)

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Very detailed knowledge of Christ.

But, we understand it because the Mystery has been revealed to us by the Spirit of God.

We can place it in a context that has meaning because we have the revelation of the New Testament Scriptures which gives us the context.

So it is not the Gospel the Old Testament Saints didn't have, it is the understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ they didn't have.

Revelation is progressive, and praise God we are on this side of the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

2) But in the New Testament, the Gospel of Christ was presented clearly, and is no longer a mystery to those who accept what scripture says rather than rewrite it according to some man-made doctrine.

The Old Testament very much accepted what Scripture said (well, perhaps with the exception of that Jonah fellow...).

And the Gospel was presented to the disciples very clearly...


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


But because the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ would not be revealed until the Spirit (Comforter) was sent (which would not take place until after He died, arose, and was glorified), the disciples could not understand it, and Peter is vehemently in opposition to the Gospel:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


And Christ makes it clear...Peter's heart is carnal...


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

3) Part of the Gospel is we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.

Can you show me where the Gospel" speaks of men?

It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not the Gospel of Jesus Christ and those chosen by Him.

4) Part of the Gospel is we were made righteous through the blood of Christ

The Gospel centers on Christ and His Work, and while the results of that Work can be included, properly the Gospel has a focus on Christ.

We are imputed the righteousness of Christ when we are saved through the Gospel. We are not "made" righteous in a practical sense, not until we are redeemed from the fallen flesh. We have been saved (from the penalty of sin), we are being saved (from the power of sin and its impact on our lives), and we will be saved (from the presence of sin, ultimately in the glorified body in the Eternal State).

5) Part of the Gospel is Christ died for all mankind, a truth partially revealed in the Old Testament.

Sorry, it was not "partially revealed" in the Old Testament just because it was given in the Old Testament. Any more than it was "partially revealed to Peter," who opposed Christ's death, which is essentially opposing the Gospel of Christ.

If it were partially revealed then it would not be a Mystery.

What part of the Rapture was "partially revealed in the Old Testament, Van?

Not a bit of it. Mystery is knowledge kept hidden, and privy only to the initiated.


God bless.

 

[Van]

As you can see, Darrel disagrees with Paul when Paul said the gospel was a mystery.
As you can see, Darrel disagrees with the idea some do not accept scripture, instead they rewrite it.
As you can see, Darrel disagrees with the idea part of the Gospel is Christ died for all mankind.

Oh well...

Darrel denies we are made righteous in a practicable sense. Romans 5:19
Darrel denies the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us.

On and on folks, on and on...

 

[Gup20]

Think of righteousness are a lack of indebtedness. Because we are in a sinful state, God holds something against us, like a debt that must be paid. When that debt is paid, then we are righteous, justified, no longer in debt. We can never pay our "sin debt" because all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags, if we are unsaved. If God makes a partial payment, i.e. credits our faith in Christ as righteousness to our account, we are still not righteous.

Abraham was not declared righteous, his faith was credited to him as righteousness. The only way anyone is made righteous from their "sinful state" is through the blood of Christ.

I see it as a binary state. One is either judged a sinner or one is righteous. It was "credited" to Abraham because it wasn't to be fulfilled until later... and by later I mean at the resurrection.

Consider that Abraham died under the judgement of Adam (death, and the curse). Note the following scriptures:

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
​

We who believe in Christ are in the same condition. We have a placeholder in the Holy Spirit, but this is not the fullness, and we have not stood before the judgment seat of Christ.

Eph 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

2Co 1:22
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Rom 4:11
and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
​

We too, like Abraham, are not made righteous, but rather have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a pledge or placeholder for the glory which is to come after the 2nd judgment. Adam's judgment (death) affects us all and we all deserve that judgment because all of us have sinned. Then Jesus came along and lived a sinless life. This necessitates a complete repeal of Adam's global judgment in lieu of individual judgments. This is why the scripture says "in adam all die, even so in Christ all are made alive." This is both the righteous and the wicked. ALL will be resurrected and then face a second, individual judgment where some will have the righteousness of Christ and some will be judged to a second death.

This is the great Mystery which has now been revealed.

​

​

 

[Van]

Hi Gup20,
1) Yes, I agree, we are either saved or we are not. We were made sinners, Romans 5:19, not judged sinners. And since only through faith in Christ can anyone be saved, we are condemned (judged) for our unbelief. John 3:18 at conception.

2) Acts of the Apostles 24:15 does not say when Abraham was made righteous, during his physical lifetime, at death and taken to Abraham's bosom, or when Jesus led him to heaven. OTOH, yes Abraham physically died in a wicked, unrighteous state, but he had gained "approval" through faith, Hebrews 11:2 and 11:8-19

3) John 5:28 says those who did good deeds will have a resurrection to life. However, the only good deed a lost person can have, is that his or her faith was credited as righteousness (judged a good deed) by God. Once saved we are a new creation created for good deeds.

4) Rev. 21:8 is non-germane.

5) It is non-germane that the wicked at taken to Hades, and will undergo the resurrection of judgment, and will be tossed into the lake of fire which is the second death.

6) The saved will not judged with the wicked, but our good deeds will be judged as worthy or not of rewards. Again this is non-germane to the issue.

7) Our indwelt Holy Spirit seals us in Christ forever, and is a pledge to the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming, Romans 8:23.

8) We do not have to wait, like Abraham did under the Old Covenant) but are made righteous when we are born anew. I think you are thinking that we have not yet been made righteous, and are awaiting the redemption of our body to be made righteous. This view is wrong. We are made "spiritually righteous" when we are born anew spiritually. This occurs when God transfers us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration. For example see 2 Corinthians 5:21.and Philippians 3:9.

9) There are no "wicked" in Christ, only" the righteous made perfect." All those God transfers into Christ will have the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Darrell C]

As you can see, Darrel disagrees with Paul when Paul said the gospel was a mystery.

On the contrary, that has been a primary point I have been asserting, lol.

As you can see, Darrel disagrees with the idea some do not accept scripture, instead they rewrite it.

I don't disagree with that at all. You are rewriting Scripture all the time...

...why do you think I am disagreeing with you.

As you can see, Darrel disagrees with the idea part of the Gospel is Christ died for all mankind.

I do: that is the Gospel, my friend.

Oh well...

Sure you want to get into such a deep subject?

Darrel denies we are made righteous in a practicable sense. Romans 5:19

Not at all. In fact I mentioned that Progressive Sanctification was not the issue we were looking at.

But you don't seem to be able to distinguish between Progressive and Positional Sanctification.

Hence you bring false arguments, because you cannot address the arguments presented to you.

You can't even properly quote someone to let them know you have responded to them. This amounts to talking behind someone's back...

...not good form, brother.

Darrel denies the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us.

Of course I do...it was nailed to the Cross, my friend.

On and on folks, on and on...

They know.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Gup20,
1) Yes, I agree, we are either saved or we are not. We were made sinners, Romans 5:19, not judged sinners. And since only through faith in Christ can anyone be saved, we are condemned (judged) for our unbelief. John 3:18 at conception.

That being "made sinners" is a positional perspective is pretty obvious.

Tell me, Van, what sin did you commit in your mother's womb?

And before you spend a great deal of time trying to remember, lol, let me suggest to you you committed no sin in the womb, but, when you grew up, learned the will of your parents, or whoever was in charge of you, you rebelled against their will and became a sinner.

And that because you were born separated from God, and not having life.

2) Acts of the Apostles 24:15 does not say when Abraham was made righteous, during his physical lifetime, at death and taken to Abraham's bosom, or when Jesus led him to heaven. OTOH, yes Abraham physically died in a wicked, unrighteous state, but he had gained "approval" through faith, Hebrews 11:2 and 11:8-19

And it was credited to his account as righteousness.

Again, the problem is not seeing Abraham as being righteous, its a matter of equating that righteous standing with the righteousness of Christ.

There are numerous men and women declared righteous in Scripture, and not one of them are intended to be viewed as havng the righteousness of Christ.

Here is an example or two:


Genesis 7:1
King James Version (KJV)

7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


Luke 1:5-6
King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Hebrews 11:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


Christians can be righteous or unrighteous in their daily conversation as well.

But this is a temporal righteousness, not to be confused with the Righteousness of Christ:


Romans 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Now show me where your righteousness correlates to His.

If you think you are righteous of your own self, and have been made righteous in a practical sense (in regards to your daily conversation), then you are seriously confused. You will not ever be righteous according to the righteous standard of God in your fallen flesh. Never. You are only righteous before God because of Christ's righteousness, and it is a matter of Positional Sanctification, not Progressive.

You are certainly being made righteous in comparison to how you once were, at least, that is God's will for your life.


God bless.

 

[Van]

DarrelC is simply repeating false assertions, denying scripture after scripture.
1) We were made sinners, rather than made innocent and became volitional sinners, a false assertion.
2) When we were transferred into Christ we were made righteous, Romans 5:19
3) When we were positionally sanctified, which refers to being transferred into Christ, baptized spiritually into Christ, we were made righteous.
4) No body "sins" in their mother's womb, but we were still made sinners from conception.
5) We were made sinners, then we stored up wrath, our debt due to what God holds against us, and faced eternal punishment until God transferred us into Christ, where we were made righteous by the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.

Pay no attention to the positional this, the temporal that and so forth, scripture means what it says, we are made righteous in Christ!.

 

[Darrell C]

DarrelC is simply repeating false assertions, denying scripture after scripture.
1) We were made sinners, rather than made innocent and became volitional sinners, a false assertion.
2) When we were transferred into Christ we were made righteous, Romans 5:19
3) When we were positionally sanctified, which refers to being transferred into Christ, baptized spiritually into Christ, we were made righteous.
4) No body "sins" in their mother's womb, but we were still made sinners from conception.
5) We were made sinners, then we stored up wrath, our debt due to what God holds against us, and faced eternal punishment until God transferred us into Christ, where we were made righteous by the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.

Pay no attention to the positional this, the temporal that and so forth, scripture means what it says, we are made righteous in Christ!.

Note: I am not responding to this member, just pointing out this is what a nice list of false arguments should look like, in case anyone else is interested in also compiling a nice list of false arguments.




God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

DarrelC is simply repeating false assertions, denying scripture after scripture.
1) We were made sinners, rather than made innocent and became volitional sinners, a false assertion.
2) When we were transferred into Christ we were made righteous, Romans 5:19
3) When we were positionally sanctified, which refers to being transferred into Christ, baptized spiritually into Christ, we were made righteous.
4) No body "sins" in their mother's womb, but we were still made sinners from conception.
5) We were made sinners, then we stored up wrath, our debt due to what God holds against us, and faced eternal punishment until God transferred us into Christ, where we were made righteous by the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.

Pay no attention to the positional this, the temporal that and so forth, scripture means what it says, we are made righteous in Christ!.

We who are saved are as Luther stated, both sinners and saints!