Some Clarification On C.H.S's Calvinism

[Iconoclast]

If we are going to be textual, we must focus on the implications for the audience in context. A historical narrative demands we understand some background information and realize that something is happening in time and space.

Do you Take 2 Chronicles 7:14 as some thing we should desire for America? Or do you believe the audience at hand is being addressed in a particular way?

John I agree with what you're saying in part but where I disagree is your take on what was being taught to the original audience I think you have missed it and I think you're putting it backwards it wasn't those who are following the father first and then Jesus was instructing them it was Jesus instructing them that they had a whole misunderstanding of what the kingdom of God was and how was going to go worldwide and he was instructing them in that so we could see what was said to the original audience that we could see the implications for us today

 

[JonShaff]

John I agree with what you're saying in part but where I disagree is your take on what was being taught to the original audience I think you have missed it and I think you're putting it backwards it wasn't those who are following the father first and then Jesus was instructing them it was Jesus instructing them that they had a whole misunderstanding of what the kingdom of God was and how was going to go worldwide and he was instructing them in that so we could see what was said to the original audience that we could see the implications for us today

Right, so we agree on the importance of the conversation/situation at hand...

John 6

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him

Who are the ones being "Drawn to Christ?"

The ones who were already part of the "Father"--Ones who were Following Yahweh.

Christ and His Father HAVE THE SAME VOICE

"My Sheep here my voice and they follow me"

Those who reject Christ Reject the Father, Those who listen to the Father also listen to the Son--and He's talking to the audience before them.

This is not talking about some future reality for those who are "Pre-sheep" due to election.


64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Therefore, unbelieving Jews were NOT GRANTED ACCESS TO CHRIST.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

"Granted" "Draw" has to do with Transfer of ownership.

 

[Iconoclast]

The giving was before the world was...no transfer. You are skipping over the all that the father gives in John 6:36 of 37 and John 1026

 

[JonShaff]

The giving was before the world was...no transfer.

I posted the Scripture

It says "My Father who has given them to me"...argue with Scripture if you want. You can pretend this all happened before the world began, but it happened/happens in Time and Space.

 

[JonShaff]

Psalm 2

Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

It happened in time and space (the giving aspect).

 

[JonShaff]

The giving was before the world was...no transfer. You are skipping over the all that the father gives in John 6:36 of 37 and John 1026

Also, you are missing the point of all the OT/NT References for being the First Born/Birth Right/Blessing if you think it happened in eternity past. It may have been promised to Him in eternity past, but it is realized in time and space.

 

[JonShaff]

The giving was before the world was...no transfer. You are skipping over the all that the father gives in John 6:36 of 37 and John 1026

This only further demonstrates my point...lol

 

[JonShaff]

Who does the Father Grant Access into a Relationship with the Son? The one who Believes on Him. It's simple my friend (And in this situation...those who "already following Yahweh would also believe on the Son)

 

[BobRyan]

thatbrian said: ↑
People hated "Calvinism" from the time when Jesus first taught it.

John 6:65–66

And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. (ESV)

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11 Calvinism denied in the Gospels
"O Jerusalem Jerusalem..How I WANTED ... but YOU would not" Matthew 23. Calvinism denied
"every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit is pruned and if no fruit then cast away" John 15 Calvinism denied in the Gospels

"we BEG you on behalf of Christ BE reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 - Calvinism denied by the NT church

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3 -- Calvinism denied by John

". 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44
"I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32 -- Calvinism denied in the Gospels

Your off topic post with failed proof text does not speak to the O.P.

How interesting that all our posts seem to be quoting from one of the texts I listed.
How "odd" that your response makes it appear that "everyone" even you, are off topic.

When Calvinsts speak of a "failed text" they mean "it failed to support Calvinism"

 

[BobRyan]

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11 Calvinism denied in the Gospels
"O Jerusalem Jerusalem..How I WANTED ... but YOU would not" Matthew 23. Calvinism denied
"every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit is pruned and if no fruit then cast away" John 15 Calvinism denied in the Gospels

"we BEG you on behalf of Christ BE reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 - Calvinism denied by the NT church

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3 -- Calvinism denied by John

". 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44
"I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32 -- Calvinism denied in the Gospels

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” is no more historical narrative than John 3:16 is.

You're going to have to try a bit harder.

". 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44
"I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32 -- Calvinism denied in the Gospels

 

[Yeshua1]

Right, so we agree on the importance of the conversation/situation at hand...

John 6

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him

Who are the ones being "Drawn to Christ?"

The ones who were already part of the "Father"--Ones who were Following Yahweh.

Christ and His Father HAVE THE SAME VOICE

"My Sheep here my voice and they follow me"

Those who reject Christ Reject the Father, Those who listen to the Father also listen to the Son--and He's talking to the audience before them.

This is not talking about some future reality for those who are "Pre-sheep" due to election.


64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Therefore, unbelieving Jews were NOT GRANTED ACCESS TO CHRIST.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

"Granted" "Draw" has to do with Transfer of ownership.

ALL of us were and have been born under the fall effecting us, so regardless of the historical setting, what Jesus mentioned they were doing would be the same thing we gentiles would also have been doing!

 

[JonShaff]

ALL of us were and have been born under the fall effecting us, so regardless of the historical setting, what Jesus mentioned they were doing would be the same thing we gentiles would also have been doing!

Ok, bro

 

[Iconoclast]

I know you sincere but your last four or five posts are really not your best at all if I can show you when I stop later and get on a keyboard probably about three and a half to 4 hours from now if I could show you how wrong those posts are would you publicly admit it and restudy these things

 

[JonShaff]

I know you sincere but your last four or five posts are really not your best at all if I can show you when I stop later and get on a keyboard probably about three and a half to 4 hours from now if I could show you how wrong those posts are would you publicly admit it and restudy these things

Just hit me up in a PM.

 

[Van]

To those who say the truth lies between Calvinism and Arminianism.

"Truth does not lie between Calvinism and Arminianism. It does not; there is nothing between them but a barren wilderness."
_____________________________________________________________________________

Assertions without references from scripture are like obfuscation without truth. The claims of men cannot be used to measure the truth of scripture.

"When some of us preach Calvinism, and some Arminianism, we cannot both be right; it is of no use trying to think we can be --'Yes,' and 'No,' cannot both be true. Truth does not vacillate like a pendulum which shakes backwards and forwards.... One must be right; the other wrong."
____________________________________________________________________________________

Both cannot be right but both certainly can be wrong.

"...but we gave the people the gospel, we brought out before the world the old Reformers doctrines, Calvinistic truth, Augustinian teaching, and Pauline dogma."

No, what was brought out was mistaken and shoddy speculation, which conflicts with scriptural truth at almost every turn.
1) Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.
2) God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election, 2 Thessalonians 2:13
3) Fallen men, entering the kingdom, were blocked, therefore irresistible grace is error. Matthew 23:13

 

[Iconoclast]

Election

Election


"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."—2 Thessalonians 2:13-14


If there were no other text in the sacred Word except this one, I think we should all be bound to receive and acknowledge the truthfulness of the great and glorious doctrine of God's ancient choice of his family. But there seems to be an inveterate prejudice in the human mind against this doctrine; and although most other doctrines will be received by professing Christians, some with caution, others with pleasure, yet this one seems to be most frequently disregarded and discarded. In many of our pulpits it would be reckoned a high sin and treason to preach a sermon upon election, because they could not make it what they call a "practical" discourse. I believe they have erred from the truth therein. Whatever God has revealed, he has revealed for a purpose. There is nothing in Scripture which may not, under the influence of God's Spirit, be turned into a practical discourse: for "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable" for some purpose of spiritual usefulness. It is true, it may not be turned into a free-will discourse—that we know right well—but it can be turned into a practical free-grace discourse: and free-grace practice is the best practice, when the true doctrines of God's immutable love are brought to bear upon the hearts of saints and sinners.

Now, first, I shall speak a little concerning the truthfulness of this doctrine: "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation."

Secondly, I shall try to prove that this election is absolute: "He hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation," not for sanctification, but "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."


Thirdly, this election is eternal, because the text says, "God hath from the beginning chosen you."

Fourthly, it is personal: "He hath chosen you." Then we will look at the effects of the doctrine—see what it does; and lastly, as God may enable us, we will try and look at its tendencies, and see whether it is indeed a terrible and licentious doctrine. We will take the flower, and like true bees, see whether there be any honey whatever in it; whether any good can come of it, or whether it is an unmixed, undiluted evil.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines, which are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are surely and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus.

By this truth I make a pilgrimage into the past, and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me.
Were I a Pelagian, or a believer in the doctrine of free-will, I should have to walk for centuries all alone. Here and there a heretic of no very honourable character might rise up and call me brother. But taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren—I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church.


I also give you an extract from the old Baptist Confession. We are Baptists in this congregation—the greater part of us at any rate—and we like to see what our own forefathers wrote. Some two hundred years ago the Baptists assembled together, and published their articles of faith, to put an end to certain reports against their orthodoxy which had gone forth to the world. I turn to this old book—which I have just published [The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)]— and I find the following as the

3rd Article: "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto."

 

[Iconoclast]

But you have concordances, and I will not trouble you with texts. Throughout the epistles, the saints are constantly called "the elect." In the Colossians we find Paul saying, "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies." When he writes to Titus, he calls himself, "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect." Peter says, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Then if you turn to John, you will find he is very fond of the word. He says, "The elder to the elect lady"; and he speaks of our "elect sister." And we know where it is written, "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you." They were not ashamed of the word in those days; they were not afraid to talk about it.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonShaff,

Also, you are missing the point of all the OT/NT References for being the First Born/Birth Right/Blessing if you think it happened in eternity past. It may have been promised to Him in eternity past, but it is realized in time and space.
...It happened in time and space (the giving aspect).psalm2

I agree it is important to understand that the eternal plan and purpose does actually unfold in time....both the Covenant of Redemption, and the covenant of grace are progressively revealed at the exactly appointed time;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

titus1;
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

2tim1;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

The promise and the giving happened before time...before creation, and yet the means and application of redemption do indeed take place ..IN TIME...as did ...the actual work of the Cross.