Is Original Sin Doctrine Found in Bible?

1Co 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Adam part is physical death, not spiritual because we are already spiritually dead even so Jesus called us dead

Mat 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the deadbury their dead.

 

No not all men are saved but His atonement has the power to save all not just the elect.

 

Right. You are conceived and born as a spirit in flesh. You are a spirit, but you are not the Spirit of God, and when you are conceived and born you do not have the Spirit of God...

...that is man's critical condition.

And the reason why he sins when he grows up and can for himself make decisions.

He will not decide to seek after God, he will decide to seek after his own pleasure.

So let's not confuse having a spirit with having the Spirit of God through the process of Reconciliation, which became necessary as a result of the Fall.

Not because sin is a disease passed from father to son.


God bless.

 

This wont be brought to an agreement.

Repeating my view
Romans 5:12 states the source of our native inclination of sin which logically requires a condemnation is that we were all there at the origin of the offense.

I'll bow out now.

 

And nowhere do we see that sin passed upon all men, but death, for all sin.

Or in other words, "The reason everybody dies is because everybody sins."

Now what you need is a verse that states sin is inherited.

But Hank, that is Paul's entire point: God gave Gentiles, who did not have the Law...the same advantage those who had the Law had.

His will was written on their hearts.

I think this...


Romans 2:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


Illustrates his point very well. "The doers of the Law shall be justified; Gentiles do the Law written on their hearts."

Its just my opinion that we cannot divorce understanding of the Word of God (which represents the will of God for man) from the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men. If we said that they, of their own ability, performed the works of the Law, we violate some fairly basic principles of the Word of God. Meaning, we contradict the teaching that the spiritual truths of God are only revealed by the Spirit and understanding is only given by the Spirit.

I think this statement is dealing with the fact of man's condition. It does not mean that David was shaped by sin, just that he was brought into a world of sin.

We would have a conflict with those passages which teach the marvel of man's creation and procreation, and of God's presence and foreknowledge of men before birth:


Psalm 22:9-10
King James Version (KJV)

9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.


God was not using sin to shape David, nor Christ (in its Messianic application).

This...


Psalm 58:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.


...would seem to fit better with a view of being "shaped by sin" but it is a condition all men are born into. David speaks of God's perspective (in reference to his own person), whereas this is an indictment on the enemies of David (and Christ, in the broader context).

These...


Psalm 71:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.


Psalm 127:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.


Psalm 139:13-17
King James Version (KJV)

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!


...do not speak of procreation as something hideous, but the continuing miracle of God in the creation of man.

So going back to your text...

Psalm 51
King James Version (KJV)

1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


...I think we see David appeal to the condition of man, but that doesn't mean that his formation in the womb has to be considered "sinful," or that somehow there is a transference from mother to son like we might say of a physical disease.

The condition of man goes back to his mother, but because she was also in the condition for which David appeals to God for mercy for. He recognizes that men are dependent on God.

Correct, but, we have to think why that is, and the condition that Christ remedies is...man's lack of relationship to God on an eternal basis.

And going back to the point I made, we see Gentiles do by nature...the works of the Law.

So in the case of sin, it is due to a lack of relationship to the One Who teaches men not to sin, and in the case of the Gentiles...it is God who taught them to do His will.

Even men not indwelt by God, born again, and in eternal union with God can obey God.

That is Paul's point.

And we see this exampled in men like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Job, and even...David.

None of these men are said to be just until God first called them.

And both are right.

And that's the problem, they are overzealous in their doctrine, to point of excluding an equally valid understanding which is seen not only explicitly, but implicitly across the pages of Scripture.


God bless.

 

Thanks, for that, Jon. The point was that the OP would have done well to present, as you have, that which the discussion centers on. At least it seems that way to me.

If this is an accurate account of Augustine's teachings, then it is absurd. And it has influenced quite a lot of people, because that is the general impression most have in regards to sin, is that it is "passed down from father to son."

The one issue I think deserves a little more attention is this:

Hebrews uses the same concept in regards to Levi paying tithes:


Hebrews 7:9-10
King James Version (KJV)

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.


But it is not a reality, simply figurative. One of the sons of Levi could not, for example, say "Well, I don't need to tithe anymore, Abraham took care of that for me..."

And equally important is not to have a view that the sin of Adam is held to our account, because that would nullify many passages teaching that men are held accountable for the sin they commit, not the sin others commit, and, that judgment will vary in degree of punishment based on the sin committed by the individual.

Another interesting aspect to this discussion is the babe in the womb that dies, or is murdered. Would we say God would hold Adam's sin to their account and thus judge them? Or would we say that their condemnation stems from their separation from God?

I see three primary basic principles in regards to God throughout Scripture:

1. God reveals His will to men;
2. God judges men based on that revealed will (for example, men in Abraham's day were not judged according to the Law, just as men under Law were not judged according to the revealed Gospel of Christ, those who have had the Gospel revealed to them will be judged more severely, Hebrews 10:28-29);
3. God judges based on man's understanding of His will.

So I would pose this question: can the babe in the womb be said to sin, and if so, what sin could one who has no understanding commit?

Correct, but it does not say that sin was passed down. It states that death is passed down.

I don't see it like that. We see Adam submitting to his wife, not Satan. Adam blames his wife, and Eve blames Satan.

Abel obeyed God. Noah obeyed God. Abraham obeyed God.

While it is true the curse impacts all men, that does not mean that men are completely left helpless. They are dependent on God's intervention, that is a constant, but, the fact remains that men can come under obedience to the revealed will of God, even when revelation is limited as it was in Abel, Noah, and Abraham's day.

And this does not suggest men do so according to "free will," it is simply a matter of revelation and intervention preceding man's response to God's will.

And this I fully agree with. And how do we, as Christians, have power over Satan? Again, it is nothing within us...except God. THat is the key, God in us.

I don't see it that way.

There are more statements of David stating his formation in the womb was overseen and guarded by God than there are statements that give a "sinful" connotation to that process. I posted several passages in a previous post, if you wanted to take a look and maybe debate that issue.

Agreed.

Explain John the Baptist:


Luke 1:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.


One might say, "Aha, you see! He was filled with the Holy Ghost from birth!"

That is true, but it still goes back to God's intervention in the lives of men. If sin were an inherited issue, then we would have to conclude God settled that issue through the filling of the Spirit, which means John did not "inherit sin," which I think you would agree takes us into the wilderness of absurd, lol. The point being that God used a man in the same condition you and I were conceived and born into to accomplish His purpose. John would still need to be redeemed by Christ's Blood (death), but, we do not see an "inherited sin" interfering with his ministry.

And just so you know, Jon, this is an issue I am trying to refine in my own understanding, and I've found that the best way to do that is to bounce it off the brethren and field the objections, lol.



God bless.

 

But the preceding verse indicts all men:


Romans 5:18-19
King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


All men are not saved by Christ, but, the Gift is offered to all men.

God bless.

 

The question is...why not?

Scripture does not teach multiple Theologies, so why do we not see the Body of Christ coming into agreement on what Scripture does teach?

Very true. We know Adam wasn't sinless because...he sinned.

So why could we not come to an agreement on this issue if we look at every relevant passage and work through this Issue? We should be able to do that, right?

Why would we need to address philosophies? We don't do that with the Death of Christ, right? Why would we do that on the issue that brought about the need for His death?

Even philosophy can be shown to be in error when held in light of Scripture.


God bless.

 

I am not familiar with Augustine's teachings. According to my word-search, the word "original" is not found in the KJV. The word does appear various times in eight other translations. However, never related to "sin". Most often it refers to an original place, such as a foundation of a temple, etc. My conclusion: The term "original sin" is not Biblical, similar to the trinity and perhaps others. It is man-made in an effort to simplify communicating more complex thoughts.

Now to stir the pot:

Was Adam aware that Eve was deceived by the serpent? If that is so, and Adam not knowing the source of the fruit - from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - he was submitting to the will of Eve, to eat the fruit. He was not knowingly/willingly defying God's command.

Gen 3:6¶
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Just food for thought and discussion.

 

Everything essentially true except the next to last sentence of the last paragraph. Merely speculation.

 

reconcile your statenment with this verse:

Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

let us specify, does original sin condemn you?

 

I agree , we did not get our sin nature from Adam but we have it

If the aborted and infant deaths are not condemned and go yo heaven , they cannot be cobdemned by original sin

2Sa 12:22¶
And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

If we accept original sin debt, then we have to include infants and others go to hell