Featured The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ 2

Okay,the first thread is almost to an end, so thought I would start a fresh one and list the Scriptures speaking about the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ for those who might be interested in looking at this issue further. The last thread was derailed a couple times and interfered with a productive discussion, so let's see if we can keep it on topic.

The basic premise of the thread is my assertion that the knowledge of the Gospel, meaning an understanding of the knowledge, was not given to men in the Old Testament. A couple issues that arise when we maintain Paul's teaching is first, the erroneous equation of the Old Testament Saint being justified through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. One of the primary difference between the economy of the New Covenant (established in full at Pentecost) and the economies of the Old Testament (which includes the Age of Law which ended when Christ died on the Cross, and sent the Comforter in fulfillment of the promise of God) is that today we are eternally redeemed at salvation, whereas the Old Testament Saint died still awaiting the redemption of their transgression and being immersed into God (the eternal indwelling).

So one question we could ask is just how much does understanding the Disciples of Christ were not born again believers impact how you understand the New Testament, and subsequently the New Covenant?

Here are some specific passages dealing with the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Ephesians 3:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Ephesians 5:30-32
King James Version (KJV)

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.



Ephesians 6:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


God bless.

 

Again I ask, show one thing you were right about, and, show one thing that is "unorthodox bordering on heresy."

You will not because you cannot.


@agedman

This true. Neither one of you are right in your statements, and show that your understanding of the Mystery of Christ is child-like.

It was. Here is the first passage you come into conflict with:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


When you can show why the preaching of Jesus Christ of Paul, which was according to the revelation of the Mystery, was not kept secret since the world began, then perhaps you might have something. The problem is...you can't do that. The bigger problem is...you won't admit it.

Would you like me to re-post the many ways you have defined "The Mystery?"

It was hidden from all men:


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


And to let you in on something, Gentile Inclusion was also preached in the Old Testament, just as the Gospel was:


Isaiah 42:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;


Luke 2:29-32
King James Version (KJV)

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.


But declaring something and giving men understanding in that which is declared is two different things.

When the "Gospel was revealed" what is meant is, not that it was declared among men as it was in Prophecy, but that understanding of that which is declared is given.

"Lighten" in v.32 is the same word translated "revelation."


Continued...

 

@agedman


Another passage that shows the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to any men is seen here:


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


By revelation God made known to Paul the Mystery of Christ. Mysteries are something that have not previously been revealed.

Gentile Inclusion is prominent because he is writing to Gentiles, but, that does not negate what he states here, which is the Mystery of Christ was revealed to Paul for the purpose that he minister the Gospel.

Now we will see, again, that it was not made known prior to the revelation of the Mystery:


5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


And there it is: it was not made known to the sons of men, which is all inclusive of all men, in other Ages.

It is now revealed to His holy Apostles and Prophets by the Spirit, which is the same Spirit states reveals the Hidden wisdom of God (also defined as the Gospel of Christ) in 1 Corinthians 2.

Now let's see this verse with mention of Gentile Inclusion:


5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


You conclude that Gentile Inclusion is the Mystery, yet ignore all that Paul states. What a mistake. Paul's ministry is specific to Gentiles, but that does not negate that the Mystery of Christ was not made known to the sons of men in past Ages:


7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

He is preaching the Mystery among Gentiles, that does not mean that is the Mystery, lol.

Now see him clarify the Mystery as being revealed to all men:


9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


You deny some pretty basic statements such as the Mystery was "from the beginning of the world hid in God," "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."


Continued...

 

@agedman

That is a result of the Gospel, not the Gospel itself.

Sorry, but it was not revealed, though mentioned.

That is what you are not understanding, the difference between something being declared, and something being revealed.

Here is the evidence that the disciples were still unbelievers in regards to the Gospel...after Christ had risen again:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Really very basic.

"Special revelation?"

That wasn't "special revelation," it was God dealing with Peter's ignorance.

Peter had received the Gospel at that point, because he had been Baptized with the Holy Ghost, and it was revealed to him by the Spirit that indwelt him.

That is why the disciples go from hiding in a room to preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That is such a shallow understanding of Acts 10-11. Don't you realize that what is shown us there is that being Baptized with the Holy Ghost...is salvation itself?


Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Do you really not understand that when Paul writes of Jew and Gentile being made one, that both groups are saved and placed in Christ? That this began at Pentecost?

Your understanding demands that Jews were being baptized into Christ prior to Pentecost, and that is not the case.


Continued...

 

@agedman

Wrong again. That is a habit with you.

From an eternal perspective we can say that the Old Testament Saints were "saved" by grace through faith, however, what you continuously ignore is that they were not eternally redeemed, they were not baptized into Christ, and their sins had not yet been forgiven:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Romans 3:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


You need to understand that.

The Mount of transfiguration does not show Moses and Elijah eternally redeemed prior to the Cross. They died and awaited redemption in Hades, like all other Old Testament Saints.


God bless.

 

Sorry, no, that is not the Mystery, as shown in the previous posts, as well as the previous thread. Try reading some posts once in a while brother, instead of giving your opinion all the time.

Not even the disciples believed the Lord would rise again:

Your theology is in grievous error and in conflict with what the Word of God teaches.

Don't you want to understand the Bible better, Yeshua1, or is a high post count good enough for you?


God bless.

 

Abraham "saw" the "Day of Christ" in that he knew a time of redemption was coming and he rejoiced in that. Not that He knew of the man Christ Jesus Who had died for his sin, and rose again. Remember, Abraham was told that through his "seed" that all families of the earth would be blessed. That is what Abraham "saw" which made him rejoice.

And the Gospel is specific to Jesus Christ dying, rising again, and being the One to Whom men must call on.

And the Redeemer Job knew was the same Redeemer all men knew...God.

He did not know about the Son of God.

This sums up the understanding given unto them:


Isaiah 49:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Yes, but again, what was not revealed unto them, all the way up until Pentecost (when the Spirit of Truth came, the Comforter), was that God would manifest in flesh, die on the Cross to pay their penalty for sin, rise again that He might begin baptizing them into Himself.

Being baptized with the Holy Ghost did not take place prior to Christ coming. This is the act of Christ (the Baptizer) when He immerses men into Himself.

John prophesied of this soon coming process:


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Being baptized with the Holy Ghost is Christ gathering into His garner, and being baptized with fire is the wrath to come John warned the Jews about, and rebuked them, charging them to show fruit that evidenced true repentance unto God. Men will be batized by one of these, one being eternal life (which He came to give), the other being eternal judgment.


God bless.

 

@Revmitchell

Just wanted to make sure I have alerted you to this reiterated challenge. Forgot to put the @ in there.


God bless.

 

I addressed everything you said.

Here it is:

On the contrary, I have set the highest Biblical Standard, and have challenged him, and you, to show Abraham having an understanding of the Gospel.

That is the point of the thread, RevMitchell, to discuss the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ, which was not revealed in Ages past, to generations past, to the saints, but is now revealed unto His holy Apostles and Prophets.

That is basic in Paul's teaching, so if you want to challenge my view...

...welcome to the thread!

BIngo!

Abraham was obedient to the revelation given him, but, he was not eternally redeemed through the Cross until Christ died in his stead.

You can prove Paul was in error to teach that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery? And that no man had the Mystery revealed to them until the Spirit came?

I think not, but you are welcome to try.

And what you do not consider is that this woman had something Abraham did not have...the Written Word of God.

The disciples had revealed to them by the Father that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God...


Matthew 16:13-17
King James Version (KJV)

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


So they had been shown He was the Messiah prophesied of, but, don't confuse that with the Mystery of the Gospel. When Christ gives the Gospel on one of the few occasions He does so, Peter is in opposition to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


So you fail in this proof text to challenge my position.

If the Disciples of Christ were not privy, I think we can safely say that Paul's teaching remains intact, yours is denied, and the woman at the well remains only with revelation within the framework of the Age of Law.

No-one has said that the Gospel is not found in the Old Testament, or that they do not testify of Christ.

The focus is that understanding was not found in the Old Testament.

Again, your proof text does not deny Paul's teaching, and I am not sure why you would want to, unless you are one of those who rejects Paul's teachings.

The Lord had an understanding, but they did not.

The Jews expected a literal man to literally take up a throne, remove Israel's enemies, and restore the Kingdom unto Israel. And from that time he would not fail to have a descendant on that throne.

Consider the carnal nature of the disciples' minds here:


Acts 1:4-7
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


Have you ever given much thought to what happens here, RM? They are just told, "You are going to be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence," and they are still desirous of an earthly kingdom?

Here is why: because most of those who stand in leadership in the Body...

...do not teach some basic facts.

The reason? Most of them are so busy making Scripture conform to their Systems of Theology that they seldom take the time to look at Scripture outside of their proff texting efforts.

Now, the challenge goes out to you, RevMitchell, if you think you can show that men were trusting in the Risen Savior prior to Pentecost.

I will tell you now...you will not be able to do that, because you will have to first find someone that understood the Gospel, and then you will have to explain why you are right, and Paul is wrong.

Secondly, not sure what you think you have "explained" here, but I can assure you, you have not "explained" how it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed in past ages and generations to the sons of men, or the saints (which is all inclusive of men).


God bless.

 

So we can see it is a false charge that I "ignored the Scripture you presented," now...

...show me where you are once right, and, where my doctrine is unorthodox bordering heresy.

You will not because you cannot, on either count.


God bless.

 

Have to go for now, but in the meantime...

As I said before, perhaps if you read the threads you might not talk so ignorantly. I have presented multiple passages and commented on them to show why Gentile Inclusion is not the Mystery of the Gospel.

Here is an example:


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


That Paul is making the Mystery known to the Gentiles does not negate the fact that it was not revealed to Ages and Generations past, and that it is now revealed to His saints.

The mystery is the Gospel itself, the riches of the mystery is...

...Christ in you.

Here is another passage where there is no context of Gentile Inclusion at all:


Romans 16:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


"All nations" includes Israel.

You cannot nullify the fact that the Mystery was kept secret since the world began.

Now, address these points.

Then show where you have been right about anything at all.

Then show how my doctrine is unorthodox bordering heresy.

You will not because you cannot.


God bless.

 

On the contrary, not only do I get it, I have presented numerous points which support understanding that the Gospel, though prophesied, was not revealed in the Old Testament.

If you would only take a look at this issue, instead of relying on your own understanding, you will get if as well.

Now here is the thing I want you to consider why this is not what we limit the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to: both Jew and Gentile were in need of being baptized into Christ and therefore reconciled to God.

Do you understand the significance of this point?

In order for you to limit the Mystery to Gentile Inclusion, the obvious demand is that Jews were already aware of the Gospel of Christ, and were reconciled to God, immersed in Him in eternal union.

Is that what you want to say?

But that is not possible, because...

1. We are told both Jew and Greek (Gentille) are made one in Christ;
2. No-one was in Christ prior to Pentecost;
3. No-one was eternally redeemed;
4. Being born of God did not start until Christ came, died, resurrected, returned to Heaven, and sent the Promised Spirit.

Now, I can back up all of these points with numerous passages of Scripture, because all Scripture testifies of these truths. Would you like to challenge them, or any one of them? As I have said before, and it remains true, you will not...because you cannot.

Time to leave your comfort zone, Revmitchell, and start studying the Word of God.


Continued...

 

Not at all.

How hard is it to understand...


Romans 16:25
King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


Paul's Gospel and preaching of Jesus Christ...was according to the Mystery which was kept secret since the world began.

What you are not understanding is that though the Gospel is definitely given in the Old Testament in Prophecy...understanding is not. That is what the revelation of a mystery means, understanding is given in something that was not known before.

And what you are forgetting, or do not know...is that Gentile Inclusion is also given throughout the Old Testament:


Genesis 12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Isaiah 42:6-7
King James Version (KJV)

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


So to say that the Mystery is the knowledge that Gentiles would be saved through Christ is very much like your misunderstanding in thinking I am saying that knowledge of Christ was not given, I haven't said that the first time. If you present the knowledge of Christ as not being the Mystery because it is found in the Old Testament, then you nullify your argument for Gentile Inclusion being the Mystery as well.

The point, Revmitchell, that you are not comprehending, is that no man understood Who Christ would be, and what He would do, and that is what has been revealed...

...understanding, not knowledge.

Now, you cannot refute this point, and I doubt you will even try, because it doesn't seem as though you are actually reading the posts, simply reiterating the same tired argument that has been already shown to be invalid numerous times. But at least...try.


Continued...