The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ 2

[Darrell C]

EV And the mystery is this: Because of Christ Jesus, the good news has given the Gentiles a share in the promises that God gave to the Jews.

Maybe you shouild read the footnote:

1. Ephesians 3:6 The words This mystery is are inferred from verse 4

The translators take great liberties in their rendition, which is according to popular pulpit mythology, and greatly biased.


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


Let me ask you one question: Does Paul teach that the Mystery was not made known to the sons of men in other Ages?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

EMTV that the Gentiles should be joint-heirs

ESV This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs,

Geneva That the Gentiles should be inheriters also,

Next question:


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


Do you teach that Jews were baptized into Christ through the Law?

Because you will have to if you teach that Jews (who are the only other group we could insert) were privy to the Mystery.

Don't you understand that Jew and Greek were made one in Christ after Pentecost?


Romans 1:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Do you deny that Israel awaited Redemption in Christ as well as the Gentile?


Ephesians 2:13-18
King James Version (KJV)

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


Do you see that both Jew and Greek are made one in Christ?

And that this was not taking place before?

Again, do you teach that Christ was baptizing Jews into Himself prior to His return to Heaven and the sending of the Promised Spirit?



15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Do you deny that both are made...one new man?

If so, you will have to equally conclude that Gentiles are now made Jews, rather than the one new man both are made in Christ.

Now for the redemption of...both:


16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


Remember, God was in Christ reconciling the world, not Gentiles...unto Himself.

Do you teach that men were being reconciled prior to Christ coming, dying, resurrected, returning to Heaven, and sending the Promised Spirit?

Can you tell me by what means they were reconciled unto God through? I would like to know this other gospel...


17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


Note that the Jews are said to be in relationship with God, but we both know that was through the Law, which is now obsolete.

Both now have access to God by One Spirit.

And you will not find a single man who had access to God prior to this.

So, still confident in your single, solitary verse you proof text your position on?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Time to give it up.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

Oh, sorry, lost my head there for a second.

I'm surprised. You know, if anyone had ever said you had a sense of humor I would have defended you tooth and nail...

...going to have to rethink that.

Every translation I have says the same thing.

Great. How many other false doctrinal position are also built on one verse yanked out of its context?

Now show me Gentile Inclusion here:


Romans 16:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


And when you have done that, I will give you another.

By the way, are you familiar with what "mystery" is in Scripture?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The "mystery" is that the gentiles are included

Because you think this is what one verse says you create a concrete doctrine out of it?

That's okay, TCassidy, many do that.

I imagine you see it here as well:



Colossians 1:20-27
King James Version (KJV)

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Now who is reconciled?

I guess Israel isn't included in all things?

And reconciled by what?

The Cross. Nothing else.


21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled


Yes, Gentile Inclusion is part of the Mystery. I have never denied that. But the point is...it isn't limited to Gentile Inclusion.



22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


Again, are Gentiles the only ones being reconciled to God through the Cross?

That is what you have to equally conclude when you limit the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Gentile Inclusion.

Another issue your position raises is the demand that Gentiles were not saved (in the Old Testament framework) in the Old Testament.



23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:


The Mystery is the dispensation of the Gospel, which has been hid from Ages and Generations, and is now made manifest to His Saints.

It was not made manifest to His Saints prior.

What was not made manifest?

The Gospel. Not that it was not given to men in the Old Testament, but that it was not made known to them. Understanding was not given them.

And the only mention of Gentiles here...


27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


...is that Paul has been given a ministry towards the Gentiles.

He does not say the Mystery is that Gentiles would be fellow-heirs, but that he (Paul) would make known what is the riches of the Mystery, which is...

...the eternal indwelling of Christ.

You can't limit that to "The Mystery is that Gentiles would be fellow-heirs."

Rev's right.

He is horribly wrong, just like you.

You are both showing a surface understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Patting each other on the back doesn't make your position any more tenable, and it does not address the numerous poits raised already which neither of you will ever be able to deny.

Surrender gracefully and live to fight another day.

Whether I live or die, fight or yield...I am dependent on the Lord for.

There can be no surrender to popular pulpit theology, I would rather die.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I see you conveniently skipped the scripture that names exactly what the mystery was. I will assist you and repost it again:

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

I just wanted to make a quick point about proof texting doctrine based on a singular verse yanked out of not only the context of the passage, but the context of Scripture as a whole.

We could do the same thing with...


John 1:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


...teaching that Adam did not see God, Abraham did not see God, and Jacob did not see God.

Dangerous habits.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Gal 3 says the gospel was preached to Abraham. Yes or no?

Yes.

But it was preached to Satan as well...


Genesis 3:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


And we know that Satan did not have an understanding of the Gospel of Christ either:


1 Corinthians 2:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

And just to clarify that the Hidden Wisdom of God refers to the Gospel of Christ...


1 Corinthians 1:23-25
King James Version (KJV)

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Did Abraham understand what was preached to him?

Not as we do, because he did not, as we do, have a context in which to understand the Gospel of Christ.

Not even the disciples understood it until after the Lord rose again and had to explain to them He was no longer dead.

As we understand it through Christ?

We understand it because the Spirit of God has revealed it to us.

That is how the Disciples came to understand the Gospel.

Immediately after being baptized with the Holy Ghost they go out and preach the Gospel, just as Christ said they would:


Acts 1:4-8
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Is not the mystery of what was preached to Abraham explained by Paul in Christ?

Yes. And that is what Paul is saying, the Mystery which was not revealed to Ages and Generations past, to the saints or the sons of men...

...is now being revealed.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is the mystery of the gospel preached to Abraham.

No, the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is just that, the revelation (the giving of understanding to) of the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can include the results of the Mystery in our understanding, such as Gentile Inclusion, Eternal Indwelling of Christ, and the creation (beginning) of the Church, but, we do not make those the Mystery itself.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Yep scripture is clear:

Sure is.

Yep scripture is clear:

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Yup, that is pretty clear.

A pretty poor translation that is contaminated by the theology of the translators.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
...The Gospel is given in the Old Testament, beginning in Genesis 3:15.

Where does the bible say that? Where does the bible use the word gospel and say that's the gospel?

If you do not recognize Genesis 3:15 as the Gospel, okay.

But I will ask you, the Bible does state that Abraham had the Gospel preached to him, so show me where we see that.

I beg to differ. I would just prefer you answer the question I asked.

Here is your question:

Or what about Gentiles and the body of Christ as it relates to Christ himself was mysterious and hidden?

Here is the answer, which does answer the question:

Here is the question to answer: when did the Body of Christ, the Church...begin?

And...were Jews already in the Body of Christ, in Christ, reconciled to God, eternally indwelt, and born again?

The answer is no, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and He reconciles men through the Offering of Christ, His Sacrifice, which makes atonement, not only for us, but retroactively atoned for the sins of the Old Testament Saint.

You ask...

Or what about Gentiles and the body of Christ as it relates to Christ himself was mysterious and hidden?

...and the response is that neither Jew nor Greek were members of the Body of Christ until Christ died, arose, and sent the Promised Spirit, which is why men are eternally indwelt by God now.

No man knew that both would be immersed into Christ. That is what is revealed to men today, but, that is just part of the Mystery, part of what is revealed to men today.

If you answer the questions posed to you you would have your answer to the question you asked.

And I'm sorry I didn't respond to more of what you wrote. You write very long

That's okay. Just pick a point to discuss and we can tone it down a little between us. I am just addressing the assertion that the Mystery is limited to Gentile Inclusion, which is the popularly taught position.

But popular doesn't equate to correct, right?


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Abraham "saw" the "Day of Christ" in that he knew a time of redemption was coming and he rejoiced in that. Not that He knew of the man Christ Jesus Who had died for his sin, and rose again. Remember, Abraham was told that through his "seed" that all families of the earth would be blessed. That is what Abraham "saw" which made him rejoice.

And the Gospel is specific to Jesus Christ dying, rising again, and being the One to Whom men must call on.




And the Redeemer Job knew was the same Redeemer all men knew...God.

He did not know about the Son of God.

This sums up the understanding given unto them:


Isaiah 49:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.





Yes, but again, what was not revealed unto them, all the way up until Pentecost (when the Spirit of Truth came, the Comforter), was that God would manifest in flesh, die on the Cross to pay their penalty for sin, rise again that He might begin baptizing them into Himself.

Being baptized with the Holy Ghost did not take place prior to Christ coming. This is the act of Christ (the Baptizer) when He immerses men into Himself.

John prophesied of this soon coming process:


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Being baptized with the Holy Ghost is Christ gathering into His garner, and being baptized with fire is the wrath to come John warned the Jews about, and rebuked them, charging them to show fruit that evidenced true repentance unto God. Men will be batized by one of these, one being eternal life (which He came to give), the other being eternal judgment.


God bless.

None of the OT saints knew the coming Messiah by hos specific name, but the saved certainly knew that he was coming!

 

[Darrell C]

None of the OT saints knew the coming Messiah by hos specific name, but the saved certainly knew that he was coming!

And again, that is not the "revelation of the Mystery."

The Revelation of the Mystery deals with making known that which was prophesied.

Read about that here...

Revelation


God bless.

 

[Revmitchell]

Darrel you appear to be a very smart fella, and I will assume you love the Lord and His word with all your heart, mind, and soul. While I hold that those things are true and I am willing to defend them I must tell you that on this subject you are not much more than a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn't there. You should really reconsider this position.

 

[Revmitchell]

"Chapter 3.......Paul speaks of the "mystery of Christ" with the Gentiles being brought into membership of the one body with God's ancient people Israel."

"Ephesians"; Introduction to the New Testament -2nd ed; D.A.Carson & Douglas J. Moo; Zondervan Press; (2005) (pg. 479)

 

[Darrell C]

Darrel you appear to be a very smart fella, and I will assume you love the Lord and His word with all your heart, mind, and soul. While I hold that those things are true and I am willing to defend them I must tell you that on this subject you are not much more than a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn't there. You should really reconsider this position.

What is amazing is that I have gone to a lot of effort to show a broader context to the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ, while you have defended your position out of one verse.

So let's get outside of your proof-text Revmitchell. There's more to be considered than one verse.

Something simple:


Romans 16:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Is the mystery here...the Gospel of Jesus Christ or no?

Answer that, and we can proceed.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

"Chapter 3.......Paul speaks of the "mystery of Christ" with the Gentiles being brought into membership of the one body with God's ancient people Israel."

"Ephesians"; Introduction to the New Testament -2nd ed; D.A.Carson & Douglas J. Moo; Zondervan Press; (2005) (pg. 479)

Just about everyone you look to to support your position is going to say that the mystery is Gentile Inclusion.

However, I will repeat the same question already asked you earlier:

Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


Let me ask you one question: Does Paul teach that the Mystery was not made known to the sons of men in other Ages?

If you are so sure of your position, Revmitchell, why is it you are powerless to address the points raised that show your position is in error?

Saying "You are wrong and I am right" isn't going to cut it. Repeating the same argument isn't going to cut it either. Just answer the questions posed to you so we can actually have a discussion.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrel you appear to be a very smart fella, and I will assume you love the Lord and His word with all your heart, mind, and soul. While I hold that those things are true and I am willing to defend them I must tell you that on this subject you are not much more than a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn't there. You should really reconsider this position.

Next point you have failed to address is in response to the argument you raised...

you have not proven that OT Saints did not understand.

I have shown you that the very disciples of Christ did not understand.

You can read about that in post 25. Here is what I began with:

I have numerous times, but will do so again for your sake, because it is important that you understand this.

And I will give you the Disciples of Christ, who were unbelievers in the Gospel until it was revealed to them by the Promised Spirit:


Matthew 16:13-17
King James Version (KJV)

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Now, I am going to show you that believing that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, the Promised Messiah, is not equivalent to believing on Jesus Christ as the Risen Savior, because despite the revelation that He was the Messiah, the Son of the Living God...we see Peter in opposition to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


You can say Peter was weak in the flesh, like most preachers do, however, what Peter does here is rebukes the Lord and says "May this never happen!"

Think about that Revmitchell.

Then you can think on Peter denying he even knew the Lord.

Then you can think about all of the Disciples of Christ scattering like sheep when the Lord is taken.

But think about this too, Revmitchell, this too was prophesied:


John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


Good luck denying the Lord's denial of their belief here.

How about trying to deny the Lord's denial of their belief here...


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


I'm okay with showing anyone who reads this thread that you are incapable of defending your position, or raising questions about my own that call it into question, but...

...are you?

Are you only interacting in this thread to get your post count up? If so, please stop wasting my time.


God bless.

 

[Revmitchell]

Just about everyone you look to to support your position is going to say that the mystery is Gentile Inclusion.

However, I will repeat the same question already asked you earlier:

Hence your unorthodox heresy

 

[Darrell C]

Darrel you appear to be a very smart fella, and I will assume you love the Lord and His word with all your heart, mind, and soul. While I hold that those things are true and I am willing to defend them I must tell you that on this subject you are not much more than a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn't there. You should really reconsider this position.

Tcassidy raised the question concerning Gentiles which brings up a few relevant questions of my own:

Time to give it up. Every translation I have says the same thing. The "mystery" is that the gentiles are included.

First...included in what?

Second...do you or he suggest that Jews were not "included" in receiving the promise?

Third...do you or he suggest that Jews were being baptized into Christ?

Can you or he address these questions?

Let me answer that for you, no, and not maintain your embrace of weak understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

All I can say is...


1 Corinthians 1:20
King James Version (KJV)

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?





God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hence your unorthodox heresy

Oh, so you affirm that popularity is how Doctrine is to be measured.

I already knew that you believed that, but thanks for admitting it.

Now, are you going to address my questions or simply slander me?


God bless.

 

[Revmitchell]

Tcassidy raised the question concerning Gentiles which brings up a few relevant questions of my own:



First...included in what?

Second...do you or he suggest that Jews were not "included" in receiving the promise?

the fact that you cannot answer that on your own shows your actual illiteracy.

 

[Revmitchell]

Oh, so you affirm that popularity is how Doctrine is to be measured.

I already knew that you believed that, but thanks for admitting it.

Now, are you going to address my questions or simply slander me?


God bless.

The Bible was determined by a preponderance of the church agreeing to it. Orthodoxy has a definition as does heresy. I suggest you familiarize yourself with them.