We are born as conceived into sin, are from birth away from God, His enemy at war with Him, we cannot be tamed in our flesh, no good thing dwells in my flesh, heart is deceitfully wicked, no one goes after God, so something indeed changed to us after the fall!
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The Curse of Galatians 3:10-14 and Penal Substitution
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
First of all, JonC, thank you for finally bringing some Scripture to bear on these questions. It was all I asked and I had given up hope of ever seeing it. However, it does not alter the fact that your definition of Penal Substitution falls short because it makes no mention of Christ becoming a curse for us. I trust that you will amend it in future to make it comply with the Scriptures.
'For Christ is innocent as concerning His own person, and therefore He ought not to have been hanged on a tree; but because, according to the law of Moses, every thief and malefactor ought to be hanged, therefore Christ also, according to the law, ought to be hanged, for He sustained the person of a sinner and a thief, not of one, but of all sinners and thieves, and therefore guilty of death and everlasting damnation. But Christ took our sins upon Him, and for them died upon the cross; therefore it behoveth that He should......as Isaiah saith, "be reckoned among the transgressors." [Martin Luther: Commentary on Galatians]. Is there wrath upon sinners? Then there was wrath upon Christ on the cross until propitiation was made, because 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.'
Once again, it is now bed-time in Britain and I have to be up early tomorrow.. If I have time I will deal with the rest of your post then.
As you yourself point out, death is not the full extent of the curse. 'It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgement.' And Christ becoming a curse for us is a whole lot more that Him laying down His life as a guilt offering (though that is part of it). Do sinners deserves hell? Then Christ deserves hell, because He was 'made sin for us' (2 Cor. 5:21), and 'He was manifested to take away our sins' (1 John 3:5).
'For Christ is innocent as concerning His own person, and therefore He ought not to have been hanged on a tree; but because, according to the law of Moses, every thief and malefactor ought to be hanged, therefore Christ also, according to the law, ought to be hanged, for He sustained the person of a sinner and a thief, not of one, but of all sinners and thieves, and therefore guilty of death and everlasting damnation. But Christ took our sins upon Him, and for them died upon the cross; therefore it behoveth that He should......as Isaiah saith, "be reckoned among the transgressors." [Martin Luther: Commentary on Galatians]. Is there wrath upon sinners? Then there was wrath upon Christ on the cross until propitiation was made, because 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.'
This is gobbledegook. It is precisely Scripture that makes heresy false. If there were no Scripture, no one would know what was heresy.
It is far more than that; the whole cosmos is put out of joint by sin. 'For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.' (Romans 8:20-21). Christ has also redeemed the kosmos from the curse upon sin. 'He is the propitiation...........for the whole kosmos' (1 John 2:2). So we read in Revelation 22:3 that 'there shall be no more curse.' Christ was made a curse for us, taking the curse against sin upon Himself and paying the penalty for it. So, when He returns, not only will we rise in new resurrection bodies free from the curse of decay and death, but there will also be a new heavens and earth, also curse-free.
I'm sorry; I meant to write Deuteronomy 27:26. However the verse I accidentally quoted does at least show that the curse on mankind is more than only death. There were no tumours, scabs or itch in Eden.
Taken with Galatians 3:10-13, the verse shows that Christ 'became a curse for us.' Is a sinner cursed by God? Galatians 3:10 says he is. Then Christ was cursed by God, because He was hanged upon a tree and because He became a curse for us.
Once again, it is now bed-time in Britain and I have to be up early tomorrow.. If I have time I will deal with the rest of your post then.
I don't have to amend it, brother. What you (and I guess @Iconoclast , and @The Archangel ) failed to notice (failed to read) was in my reply. This is why you missed all of the other times I dealt with these passages. But I do understand. I'm at the age when I have to use reading glasses (I have progressive lenses now, but they do not serve well at the computer screen).
Martin, I get the impression that you think that Christ did not fulfill all the law?
The law was not made for Christ, the law was made BY Christ as was all things. He fulfilled all the law demands. There was no impressed "curse" of Christ in which the Lord was cursed, but he took OUR curse, became OUR curse. As such, just as the OT sacrifices became the curse, the result was not torture under God's wrath, but the innocence was able to carry the curse without rebuke before the thrown. See the scene setting of Revelation 5.
Now, this thinking that aligns the curse was impressed by God upon Christ and therefore was needing retribution is wrong.
What exactly does it mean by using the word "Curse." It is one who is doomed. It is not one who is being tortured, but doomed, ruined, condemned to death...
In what manner was this not the very Christ hanging on the Cross not doomed, ruined, condemned? Was not the cry just hour before, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die."
Some would desire to see the word used as if God's retribution is part of the mix, and it simply isn't, but rather the writer is using "katara" from the perspective that one is without hope, forsaken, doomed. Just as the Word cried out "Why have you forsaken me?" Not abandoned, but lacking support, not defended, doomed, condemned, ruined.
Martin has clearly made the point of the term forsaken....You do not see this as serious?
How do you picture God's wrath being poured out?
Do you picture angels punching sinners in the face? or lighting bolts coming down on a sinner?
Those who are in the realm of death go into second death...without exception, without mercy?
Do you not think this God forsaken condition for eternity is wrath bein g poured out??
How do you picture God's wrath being poured out?
Do you picture angels punching sinners in the face? or lighting bolts coming down on a sinner?
You think the curse....is "only Physical death?
Those who are in the realm of death go into second death...without exception, without mercy?
Do you not think this God forsaken condition for eternity is wrath bein g poured out??
Not certain to whom you are writing.
Forsaken does not mean abandon for The Christ could never be abandoned by the Father, for He is inseparable in the trinity. The most that the word can carry is the definition of withholding support.
I don't need to "picture God's wrath being poured out." There is not a reason to picture such, for it is not foundational to the proper understanding of Scriptures.
As I already explained above, the word Curse is one doomed, ruined, condemned, under judgement.
Two aspects of the word in relation the crucifixion.
1) The Christ was condemned, ruined, under judgment, doomed - "We have a Law and by that Law He ought to die."
2) The Christ was condemed, ruined, under judgment, doomed - ""Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour '? But for this purpose I came to this hour."
God did not impress a curse upon Christ, by taking upon himself the curse of humans, he was doomed, under judgment, ruined, condemned, just as that precious perfect sacrifice the minute it was selected was doomed, under judgment, ruined, condemned.
But in the zeal to impress human emotions upon the people and in the exuberance to convince, some would actually abuse the Scriptures and assume that God cursed the Son and therefore God poured His Wrath out upon the Son.
That just isn't the use of the word curse. The curse is not impressed upon, but the condition of one. A huge difference!
Also,
Strictly from Scripture, it is physical death. We are appointed once to die and then the Judgment, which is Christ-centered (the Father judges no one but all judgment is given to the Son).
I do wonder, though....if physical death is a part of the curse and Christ died in our stead then why do you believe we still die physically?
I believe the death is primarily spiritual
I understand. I did at one time as well, and I think this a fundamental distinction between the Theory of Penal Substitution and some of the other theories (Christus Victor, for example, viewed the death as physical).
But do you view the death as also physical (did Adam physically die because of this curse)?
Once conceived in the realm of death, there is no life apart from Christ...the physical life..[is dead men walking]
The threat was death (Gen. 2:17; 3:17-19). Death has a threefold aspect, spiritual (moral and religious), judicial, and psycho-physical. In Genesis 2:17, as interpreted by the pronouncement of Genesis 3:17-19, the emphasis falls upon psycho-physical death (cf. Rom. 5:12-19). It may well be that this is the only aspect expressly intended. But in the broader context of Scripture we shall have to take account of the other aspects. For example, when Paul describes the condition of the unregenerate as being ‘dead in trespasses and sins’ (Eph. 2:1), we cannot exclude this death from the death threatened in the original reference to death. Again, judicial death, as will be noted, consists in separation from God and the infliction of the curse. But sin is said expressly to be the cause of both separation and curse (Isa. 59:2; Gal. 3:10). This separation is symbolized in expulsion from Eden, for it meant expulsion from that which betokened the favour of God.
Spiritually our first parents became dead in the day they sinned. Their sin constituted this death; they estranged themselves from God and their mind became enmity against God. Judicially they also died the day they sinned; they became subject to the curse. Psycho-physical death can be said to have befallen them the day they sinned, in that mortality became their lot. They became mortal even though the actual dissolution did not take place. This death consists in the separation of the integral elements of their being, and exemplifies the principle of death, namely, separation. Since it is this aspect of death that is in the foreground in Genesis 2:17 and 3:17-19, and properly so, because of the prominence given to what is phenomenal in the administration as a whole, we are advised of the significance of this aspect in the judgment upon sin. It is not a mere incident. It consists in the disintegration of man’s person, and demonstrates as such the gravity and total abnormality of sin and of its consequence. The body returns to dust and sees corruption, and the spirit, though it continues to be active, is no longer existent or active in its normal and natural relationship. Death is not merely a physical event; it is separation of body and spirit; and disembodied existence for man is punitive and expresses God’s condemnation.
Spiritual death describes man’s moral and religious condition; judicial death describes his status in reference to God; psycho-physical death describes the disruption of his very being.
The Adamic Administration by John Murray | Monergism
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So you don't believe the wages of sin to also be a physical death?
Because Christ did not die from sin or taking on sin.
He laid His own life down proclaiming the finish, the completion of the mission.
All still carry the sin of the flesh and will deteriorate and die, for that is the wages sin delivers to all, for all have sinned.
But look only at John 3 to see, that the second death is not conditioned upon sin, or sinfulness.
It rests squarely upon belief. Those that don't believe are condemned while they still are living, not because of sin, but because of a lack of belief.
But the curse - the doom, the ruination, the condemnation is not from sin for sin pays a wage, and it doesn't carry a debit card, but the lack of belief - which brings the second death. The lack of belief is as one who cannot pay the credit due and is found condemned, doomed, ruined, cursed.
There is that wonderful use of accounting terms in the Scriptures that I alluded, too. Perhaps in the quiet of your own meditation and study you will again work through them and see how we are credited, and the unbeliever carries a credit debit that cannot be paid.
I agree. And sorry, I was asking Icon about his view and forgot to clear the quote off my screen.
I'd say the reason we die is because Christ did not take the wages of sin from us, but instead shared in our humanity under the curse so we may have life.
Adam died spiritually on the spot. Of course physical death follows.... I am saying no one has life outside of Christ...they are dead men walking...
6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
But if Christ suffered our punishment so we wouldn't then why do we, who are alive in Him, die physically?
This is flat out serious error.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
sins plural.....
there are degrees of punishment;
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
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Because real life is the eternal which we have as believers, this body is condemned by the fall.....
jn5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Careful. We have an interloper reporting such language
. I'll call him/her Δόλος.
(not the Greek word)
In your opinion.
But it is Scripture.
That you may not agree, does not rephrase, that of John.
"18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
I guess that's what I don't understand about your view. We were all condemned. But Jesus the punishment instead of us. Scripture clearly links physical death as a wage of sin. So if that is paid and we are alive spiritually, then why would we still face death (physically)? It seems God would be collecting twice on the physical death part.