Felipe Rios
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When will the Rapture/Resurrection occur?
- Thread starter Felipe Rios
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NewCovenantBaptist
New Member
Rapture (per I Thess 4) is synonymous with resurrection. It occurs for each individually at natural death.
Felipe Rios
Member
So is there a resurrection when Jesus comes back?
Actually, no, as there will be a bodily physical resurrection at time of the second coming!
NewCovenantBaptist
New Member
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NewCovenantBaptist
New Member
Please see my Felipe Rios right above this one.
the rapture happens at the last day;
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
NewCovenantBaptist
New Member
Agreed.
But, the "last days" spoken of by Jesus are generally from the time of (basically when John the Baptist begins his prophetic ministry, or more specifically at), the descent of the Holy Spirit at Jesus' baptism, to the razing of the Temple in 70AD. "The last day" is likely a euphemism for the demise of the Old Covenant (and its theocratic system).
So, I'm saying the final clause of 1 Thess. 4:16 '...and the dead in Christ shall rise first' refers to the Old Covenant saints (who "sleep in Jesus" verse 14). They are raised corporately on the last day of the Old Covenant age.
After that singular last day event for the Old Covenant dead is overwith, THEN we who are living in the New Covenant age shall each in our turn at our natural deaths also one by one be raptured (resurrected) and join them.
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There is:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The only resurrection that takes place when Christ returns is this one, the First Resurrection. What is important to understand about the First Resurrection is that "first," protos in the Greek, does not always refer to sequential order, but rank (see the link and you can look through how this word is used elsewhere (click on "is the first" and it will take you to Strong's Concordance)). The "First" Resurrection is the resurrection unto life, and it is likely these Tribulation Martyrs (identified by the fact that they did not take the mark of the beast, not to mention this Book describes the Tribulation) are at this time glorified, seeing they live and reign with Christ for the thousand years of the Millennial Kingdom.
We know it is not the "first" in a context of sequence, because w see at least two (three if you count the Pre-Tribulation Rapture) resurrections prior to this one. The first is the Resurrection of Christ, Who is the first to rise from the dad never to die again:
Colossians 1:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Acts 26:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
1 Corinthians 15:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
In regards to the Rapture of the Church, we will rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There is nothing in the Prophecy of Christ's Return that shows the Church being raptured, we only see the Tribulation Martyrs raised.
The second resurrection which precedes the First Resurrection is the Rapture of the Two Witnesses:
Revelation 11:7-12
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
They die, are resurrected, and caught up to Heaven. That is the Rapture of the Two Witnesses, who are two literal men.
So we cannot properly place a sequence to the meaning of the First Resurrection, because it is not the first in a sequential context, but, it is the First in regards to the two resurrections He taught:
John 5:29
King James Version (KJV)
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
If we do not spiritualize Prophecy away, but keep it intact and interpret it the same way we see as all prophecy in Scripture fulfilled, we can take Christ and Paul's teachings and conclude the only tenable position is to view the Rapture as taking place prior to the start of the Tribulation.
Christ taught about His Return extensively, and we see in Matthew 25 His Return, and what takes place is that those still alive on this earth when He returns are judged. As He taught Nicodemus in John 3, only those who are born again will enter into the Kingdom (and the only Kingdom Nicodemus knew about was the physical Kingdom prophesied in the Prophets. All unbelievers will be destroyed, which will leave only physically alive believers who were born again in the Tribulation.
And we can't have them raptured because they are the ones who produce the offspring that rebels against God and joins ranks with Satan at the end of the Millennial Kingdom:
Revelation 20:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Immediately after this the current universe passes away, and the Great White Throne judgment takes place:
Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Again, no Rapture of the Church recorded here either.
Only in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture do we see all prophecy remaining intact.
God bless.
No man knows the day or the hour
Actually my guess is per-tribulation.
But I might change my view (especially after it happens).
Could you present your Scriptural basis for that?
The passage you speak of does not speak of death for those who are alive, they are instantly glorified:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
King James Version (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Surely you aren't implying the Lord has returned, are you?
Your first proof text...
Ephesians 4
King James Version (KJV)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
...speaks of His return to Heaven.
Your second...
1 Thessalonians 4
King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
...still remains to be fulfilled.
Continued...
The last days are, when referred to by Paul, referring to this Age. However, Christ makes it clear that there will be signs foreshadowing His Return.
I am guessing you are preterist in your views? You can clarify.
John the Baptist's ministry is an Old Testament Ministry, it is not part of this Age, or, the last days spoken of by Paul:
Matthew 11:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Luke 7:28
King James Version (KJV)
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
The implication is...John was not in the Kingdom.
And the Kingdom Christ preached about was the physical Kingdom first and foremost. He ministered specifically to Israel during His ministry...
Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
...and ministered to Israel within the framework of the Law and the Prophecy they had available to them at that time. So it is better to understand the Kingdom promised to the Jews is the Kingdom in view. We, having the revelation of the New Testament and the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, can place His teachings in a context of the Kingdom He established as the Risen Savior, but they could not.
The Mystery of the Gospel of Christ was not revealed to men during Christ's ministry, that would not take place until after Christ returned to Heaven and sent the Comforter.
Even the Disciples of Christ yet wondered about that Kingdom, because they thought Messiah would ride in on a white horse, overthrow Rome, and restore Israel unto her glory. And from that day forward not fail to have an heir on the throne. They did not understand that Christ would forever rule on that throne literally.
See their question when they are told they will be Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence:
Acts 1:4-7
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
You'd think they would be joyous about finally receiving the Promised Spirit, but no, they are still carnal in their minds and hearts. They want that physical Kingdom promised by God.
That is still on the Agenda:
Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Israel will be, on a National basis, brought into relationship with God through the New Covenant. God has not cast them away, and will fulfill His promises to them.
Continued...
To understand the Old Testament Saints we go to Hebrews first:
Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
In Chapters Nine and Ten the Writer develops the theme of "Perfection," which is better understood as "Completion." What He teaches is that those under the Law were not made "perfect" in regards to remission of sins. And this would apply to all sacrifice of animals, which we see as early as the Garden of Eden (coats of skins) and in Abel (he brought of his flock and the fat thereof).
He also teaches that not only have we (those in Christ) been made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins, but, just as the promise of God in the Old Testament states, we have been made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins...forever:
Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
In Chapter Twelve the Writer distinguishes between the Church and the Old Testament Saint, showing that they have now (with us) been made perfect/complete:
Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
The Old Testament Saints were justified, but, they were not eternally redeemed, nor were their transgressions redeemed (and I will show you that in a minute). That could only (and ever) be accomplished by Christ.
And he includes all sacrifice when he shows Christ's sacrifice is better than those which were only a foreshadow of His:
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Abel didn't die for anyone, he was simply murdered. But, he did offer up sacrifice to GOd, which is why he was accepted and Cain was not.
Eternal Redemption and redemption of the transgressions of the Law was accomplished by Christ:
Hebrews 9:12, 15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
The New Covenant is established on the blood (the death) of Christ. The benefits of His Offering of Himself began to be bestowed after He died, so we see the Old Testament Saint retroactively made complete in regards of remission of sins. That is why they are called "spirits of just men made perfect," because they were liberated from Hades when Christ died, and are now in Heaven.
Continued...
Just not what Scripture teaches.
The Covenant of Law was officially abrogated at Pentecost, when the Comforter came. It was at that time that relationship with GOd began to be through His eternal indwelling of the believer, which did not take place prior to Pentecost.
Paul was looking very much forward to the Rapture, and he makes it clear there is a difference between being glorified and simply being dead:
2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
He is speaking of our earthly bodies (earthly "house" which houses the spirit) and the "building (body) of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens," which is the glorified body.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
It's quite Biblical to yearn for the Rapture. Paul yearns to be "clothed upon" with that house from Heaven, which is eternal.
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
To be "naked" means that our spirit has neither "house." So he is saying "I yearn to be glorified, rather than simply dying. This shows that the glorified body does not occur at death.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
"We in this (earthly) tabernacle groan, being burdened, not that we should leave this earthly tabernacle and have no house, but...that our mortality might be swallowed up with that eternal life found in the body God has prepared for us."
In other words, "We aren't wanting to die and thus be shed of the burdensome earthly body, we are yearning to be glorified."
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
He that created us for the glorified body is God, and He has given us His indwelling Spirit as a guarantee that we will receive that body.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
Again, we see that we are not glorified at death, because here he makes the point "We are not with the Lord while we are in this body (not in Heaven),..."
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
...and when we die we are not in this earthly body, though we are with the Lord.
Again, it is Biblical to desire to be glorified. Paul makes it clear that receiving that body could take place at any time. And we simply look at his other teachings concerning our mortal frames being made immortal, and it is very obvious he is desiring the Rapture to take place. We see mortality swallowed up of life here:
1 Corinthians 15:51-54
King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
God bless.
I think we missed the Rapture. Jesus came and the trumpets blew ... but we were all argung too loudly about the Tribilation to hear the call, so He just decided to try again later.
There's no argument: the Church will be raptured prior to the Tribulation.
If the Rapture did take place and we missed it...you know what that means.
God bless.
Meaning those who choose other have a view 'other' than the four previous given.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
It means that I can't untangle the mess between Daniel and Revelation to figure out the order of anything. Too much symbolism for this linear, literal brain to parse between the 'spiritual' truths (like a dragon trying to eat a lady) and what some people claim must be a literal 1000 year kingdom on the Earth.
So I am a 'Pan-Tribulationist' ... I believe that it will all pan out in the end.
Jesus will return the way he left.
We will meet him in the air.
He is coming for his Bride - the Church.
He has gone to prepare a place for us.
Where He is ... we will be: FOREVER.
Everything else is just details ... (and I don't sweat the details).
What's hard to understand?
Both Daniel and Revelation speak of a seven year period in which the Antichrist arises.
Figurative language always teaches a literal truth.
It's pretty clear the dragon is Satan and the Woman is Israel. The Child is Christ.
Not really any different than the parables of Christ. You understand what the seed is, right? You understand Who the Sower is, right? I guarantee you if you simply read through Revelation ten times you would, by the end of those ten readings, have a pretty firm grasp on the Book.
Our eschatology is pretty important to our Soteriology. I think it also has an impact on our witness, in the sense that if we understand the imminence of Christ's Return, we should be motivated to get as much done as we possibly can.
God bless.
NewCovenantBaptist
New Member
When Jesus talks about "this age", he means the Old Covenant age. So, yes "the last days" refer to tail end of Jesus' phrase "this age", but the this age He mentions has passed. Thus, we are in what Jesus referred to as "the age to come".