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The Bible condemns OSAS doctrine.. yet some folks still believe it

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 28, 2018.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 18

    21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

    22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.


    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”



    True - because
    "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23
    "The soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4
    "The second death" Rev 20 is that debt/punishment that will be applied to the lost, the wicked and it is the only death that the saints do not die - because Christ pays our debt for us.






    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    1. God forgives sin.
    2. Christ said the sinner will be forced to "repay all" ... that which God paid in forgiving and in dying on the cross - the sinner will repay... repay all.

    "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23
    "The soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4
    "The second death" Rev 20 is that debt/punishment that will be applied to the lost, the wicked and it is the only death that the saints do not die - because Christ pays our debt for us.

    The suffering and torment owed for each sin - the sinner will "repay all".
     
    #121 BobRyan, Apr 1, 2018
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Romans 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    True - that is what the text says.

    And it says by contrast - but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off

    Trying to get the cut-off state of the unbelieving Jews to be = "salvation" is fruitless no Bible text will support it.
    And the text is clearly warning those who "stand by your faith" of that same dire consequence in their future should they fail to continue in the path God has set out for the saints to follow.
     
    #122 BobRyan, Apr 1, 2018
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 6
    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified

    Which is not what 1Cor 6 says.

    1. "you were justified"
    2. "you were sanctified"
    3. so "BE NOT DECEIVED" that you can live like the devil and expect heaven.

    This is the message we can all see in 1Cor 6.

    You did not address that detail in your response.
     
    #123 BobRyan, Apr 1, 2018
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ezek 18
    4. "The SOUL that sins will die"

    21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

    24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

    25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.

    Second death.

    "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23
    "The soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4
    "The second death" Rev 20 is that debt/punishment that will be applied to the lost, the wicked and it is the only death that the saints do not die - because Christ pays our debt for us.

    Only in the final judgment is it true that all the righteous live and all the wicked die. Obviously.

    For in this life - BOTH the righteous and the wicked die. --- obviously.

    Only in the final judgment do we find "the soul that sins it will die".
    ONLY in the final judgment does the most wicked sinner get complete forgiveness and "LIVE" simply by turning to righteousness in the Gospel context offered in Ezek 18

    In this ilfe -- in the first death -- "do not fear those who KILL the body but cannot kill the soul" Matt 10:27-28

    Not even remotely -- since in this life BOTH the righteous and the wicke die.
     
    #124 BobRyan, Apr 1, 2018
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 6
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

    Gal 5
    4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
    ..

    Indeed -- the saved. Who then turn
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,...
    6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

    It appears that at that point you lost focus.
     
    #125 BobRyan, Apr 1, 2018
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Gal 5
    4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
    ..


    You are free to "find some other text" about those who were never under grace, never joined to Christ and refused the gospel -.. thus they never fall from grace having never been under it - and they were never severed from Christ - having never been joined to Him.

    But this text is talking about those joined to Christ - who are then severed from Christ
    This text is talking about those under grace - who then have fallen from grace.
     
    #126 BobRyan, Apr 1, 2018
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Heb 2
    1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
    After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

    (BTW - thank you for taking all the time to try and "fix" those texts on behalf of OSAS - and for doing it without all the vitriol and acrimony that some other folks resort to instead of looking at the Bible details... much appreciated!)

    The text does not say "beware of a tendency to drift way from you present condition of half-belief of less-than-full-belief"

    In fact we WANT you to drift way from "half-belief" .. The text does not question the current state of belief - rather it warns against drifting away in the future - from such a wonderful state in the present.

    This is irrefutable detail in the text itself.
     
    #127 BobRyan, Apr 1, 2018
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 10
    11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall......

    (BTW - thank you for taking all the time to "fix" these texts on behalf of OSAS - and avoiding the "resort to vitriol" so typical of some folks that post on these threads)

    The text warns against falling -- it does not warn "the wicked from falling"' from their wickedness.. IT warns those who are in a position to think that they stand by faith alone - from thinking that they can never fall in the future - but rather to stick with perseverance and heed the warnings given in history - so as not to fall in the future.

    OSAS denies every single warning given - by re-imagining it as a warning to the lost "not to fall away" from their lost condition... which of course would be total nonsense -- yet in every instance the OSAS "rework" of the text tries to get the warning about falling -- to apply to those never saved as if it would be "bad" for the unsaved to "fall" from their unsaved state!!

    This has to be an outright eye-opener for the believer in OSAS
     
    #128 BobRyan, Apr 1, 2018
  9. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    It warns the saved fro falling back into sin simple as that but not falling from salvation. What sends one to hell? Tht's where you need to look? John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    Failure to believe on Christ sends one to hell. Sin doesn't other than the sin of failure to believe on Christ! John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Those who hear and heed, that those who hear the gospel and call upon christ for salvation shall not come into condemnation but are passed from a state of death (spiritual) to Spiritual life. which is eternal. Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. The old sin nature in us brought us to condemnation but faith brings Righteousness the free gift of salvation comes upon all who believe to justification.

    Revelation 20:
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    First who are the dead? Those who have died without Christ.Two books are taken one has the persons works, not one of the works was able to get them into heaven. Then the book of life or Lambs book of life was checked, those whose name are not written in that book which requires faith in Christ to be entered into were cast into the lake of fire. Not one is cast in because of sin, no sin is listed against them in verse 15 there only sin was unbelief having never believed as Christ said in John 3:18. Which clearly says those who believe are not condemned but those who believe not are condemned already. So show me where their sin sends them to hell! Show the list of the sins of those in John 3:18 and Revelation 20:15 that caused them to enter into condemnation. The only one is unbelief. So can a believer enter into sin and still have the Spirit indwelling them? 1 Corinthians 6:9 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? When does the Holy Spirit enter the moment we believe, when does He leave? Well Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Once a person has Trusted in Christ that is believed on Him they are sealed with the Holy Spirit who indwells us. When does the sealing leave? Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    Says we are sealed unto the day of redemption that is when our body and soul join together at Christ return. So the Holy Spirit indwells at faith and never leaves us.

    But notice something else we can Grieve the Holy Spirit, and how, by sinning and defiling the Temple. 1 Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. God gave to all who believe the Holy Spirit that is the sealing or indwelling Holy Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    How will God destroy Him? ! Corinthinas and 2 Timothy by turning them over to the torturer (satan) for destruction of the flesh so the Spirit will be saved.

    Not one place do we see the unsealing of the Holy Sealed in fact we see we are sealed unto the day of Redemption Ephesians 4:30 very clearly showing OSAS.
     
    #129 revmwc, Apr 2, 2018
  10. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Clearly we have OSAS let us not drift away from the truth of God's word, let us not drift after false teaching, how shall we escape God's chastening as believers if we neglect our salvation by not following the truth of Scripture. Nothing at all about lose of salvation but Chastaining of God as believers for neglecting the truth from turning from doctrinal truth.
     
    #130 revmwc, Apr 2, 2018
  11. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Let me see when we are operating in sin and not in the Spirit how is Grace effected? 2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
    When we walk in sin is grace abounding to bring all efficiencies in all things, will we have success in Spiritual things if we are walking in sin, this says no way! 2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    When we have severed Christ by saying we are justified by the Law we have fallen from the sufficiency of Grace in time. nothing to do with loss of salvation but of the benefits of God's Grace in our walk. Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Were they still saved? Yes but they had removed themselves from the effects of the Grace of god looking to another Gospel. Thus Galatians 4 is speaking of the same thing as 1:6 the effectual working of God's grace in supplying our needs or hearing our prayers. But not the Grace of salvation.

    Now what do we see here Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. We can as believers walk in the Spirit if we live in the Spirit or we can walk in sin, why would Paul say let us walk in Spirit if we couldn't also be a believer and walking in sin.

    Ephesians 4:
    7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
    8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    WE have gifts that work in our lives as we live for Christ but we call fall from the grace that supplies those gifts by walking in sin as believers and they become of non effect. But this is not the Grace of Salvation we never lose it.
     
    #131 revmwc, Apr 2, 2018
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    It is impossible to renew something that is already renewed, there is no need for salvation again you've already been saved and need not be saved again. What they need is repentance from walking in sin. Trying to renew or be saved again causes Christ to be crucified all over again for the sin He already paid for. Every time someone tries to be saved again they are crucifying christ afresh but sin all sin is paid for in full. It only takes confession to be forgiven and cleansed so you can continue your walk.
     
    #132 revmwc, Apr 2, 2018
  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    The wages of sin is death? I thought Christ paid those wages for all mankind didn't HE! He is the Propitian for all sin right? The soul that is the person who sins dies but which death is refered too? The second death comes to all not saved.
     
    #133 revmwc, Apr 2, 2018
  14. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    At the point of Salvation we were washed, sanctified and justified, there is no need for it again because at that point we were or received all these benefits.
     
    #134 revmwc, Apr 2, 2018
  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Yeah, the key word there among all the obvious "again" and "if", and "once", and "renew", and "afresh", and "fall away", stuff, is really the word "impossible". Think about how the OSAS/IG/[false]predestination crowd would have to believe in a cruel warped version of predestination, since they teach that a 'saved' person could never be a 'lost' person again, or a 'forgiven' person, could never be an 'unforgiven' person [they must truly think judges among men more righteous/just than God is, I mean consider those cases where a criminal had done some illegal act, but got a break from a pitying judge, and the person went free by the grace of the judge, only for that person to briefly live in probation under a smarting conscience, and yet in spite of such mercy shown, do something even worse thinking more grace would be bestowed, and end up before the judge again ... what would an just earthly judge do? Throw the book, and include the penalty for the last known offense since it is still on record ...], and so to whom would they have this word apply to, and what that then automatically means they teach?, and how that word "impossible" just sticks out ...
     
    #135 One Baptism, Apr 2, 2018
  16. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    "... were washed ..."

    2 Peter 2:21 KJB - For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    2 Peter 2:22 KJB - But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.​

    Israel of old had been "washed" too, a type ... Read all of Ezekiel 16 KJB

    Ezekiel 16:2 KJB - Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

    Ezekiel 16:3 KJB - And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

    Ezekiel 16:4 KJB - And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

    Ezekiel 16:5 KJB - None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

    Ezekiel 16:6 KJB - And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

    Ezekiel 16:7 KJB - I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

    Ezekiel 16:8 KJB - Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

    Ezekiel 16:9 KJB - Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

    ... [keep reading Ezekiel 16 KJB]​

    Yet, Jesus said to them:

    Matthew 23:38 KJB - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    ​
    Jesus then left and went out unto the east, unto the Mount of Olives, just as before:

    Ezekiel 11:23 KJB - And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city.​
     
    #136 One Baptism, Apr 2, 2018
  17. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    #137 Squire Robertsson, Apr 2, 2018
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    When we say that someone is saved by grace through faith and stands only by their faith.. we do not claim that they "fell" if they happen to covet or some other minor slip.

    Falling in this case in 1 Cor 10 is very specific. And not at all the trivial matter of covet.

    6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” 8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
     
    #138 BobRyan, Apr 2, 2018
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Heb 2
    1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
    After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

    (BTW - thank you for taking all the time to try and "fix" those texts on behalf of OSAS - and for doing it without all the vitriol and acrimony that some other folks resort to instead of looking at the Bible details... much appreciated!)

    [/QUOTE]
    Not true because the detail in the text is put in this in the context the "just penalty" where people were killed by God in the OT and it is "neglect salvation" it is not "forgot some minor point of doctrine"
     
    #139 BobRyan, Apr 2, 2018
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Gal 5
    4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
    ..
    You are free to "find some other text" about those who were never under grace, never joined to Christ and refused the gospel -.. thus they never fall from grace having never been under it - and they were never severed from Christ - having never been joined to Him.

    But this text is talking about those joined to Christ - who are then severed from Christ
    This text is talking about those under grace - who then have fallen from grace.

    In the text it says "fallen from Grace" and "severed from Christ" - which is a problem for OSAS because NO TEXT says "Gospel salvation is to be severed from Christ - and fallen from grace". No such thing as that in all of scripture and we probably both know it.

    True but in your response you never bring yourself to a "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" topic. Yet these are the very "problem" details that you would have needed to "fix" in Gal 5.
     
    #140 BobRyan, Apr 2, 2018
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