Israel?

But the larger point is that the concept of thinking a people forsaken because of lack of faith. The remnant Paul is speaking about is among National Israel. That is not to say they are saved, simply not forsaken. The group in view is National Israel, those he desires to be saved. He then makes the point "But don't think that God has cast them away." In view is a blindness said to be temporary with a definite end to that blindness, at which time Israel will be grafted back into the provision of God, which at this time is the New Covenant.

I think it important to understand that the "tree" in view is not salvation, it is the provision of God. Israel did not receive salvation or eternal life because they were in the "tree," which for Israel is the Covenant God established when He created them "His People."

Think of John 15 and the "True Vine." What is the Vine that is not the true vine (we see the True Bread contrasted with Manna)? The vine contrasted to the True Vine is the provision of God for Israel, relationship with God through the Covenant of Law. The True Vine is Christ, which is the Provision Christ, in advance, tells them to abide in.

Relationship with God is no longer through the Covenant of Law, but through the New Covenant, through Christ.

We see that the immediate events after this teaching do not show the disciples "abiding," but being scattered (as Prophecy foretold), and even having Peter denying he even knew Christ. We also see that after the Resurrection the disciples were unbelieving and hard of heart, and did not believe Christ had risen from the dead (Mark 16:14). But, after they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost (immersed into God), they immediately begin preaching Christ crucified, because at that time the Scriptures that He should rise from the dead were opened to them (John 20:9).

So going back to National Israel, we see that the time is coming, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, when Israel will be grafted back into His Provision, namely, into New Covenant relationship with God through Christ:


Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


God bless.

 

Well, of course, converts do not have the DNA of Abraham and Sarah because they were not actual physical descendants. In a general conversation, one can hardly deal with all of the exceptions and when they happened in the last four thousand years, can one? But nevertheless, converts were true Jews.

Jews exist today because they are the apple of God's eye. It is stated about five times in Scripture, as you know, but here is one example:

Zechariah 2:8 (KJV) For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

Do you have one of those everlasting covenant agreements for your beliefs?

 

Well, you said it better than I did. It is not vague but it does leave out any doctrinaire position on eschatology. So you can be a dispensationalist if you like and you can be a modified dispensationalist if you like. I try to avoid discussion of the subject because so many people consider you a heretic if you do not agree with them, but since you ask, I tend to lean towards a post-trib rapture and a thousand year reign on earth, just to show that men are so depraved that even though they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is God, they still reject him. I came out of the Disciples of Christ, which was strong in Indiana, almost sixty years ago, so I never was taught dispensationalism and never heard of it in the small town where I am from. As you know, Campbell never really taught any doctrine and that is why the denomination is now almost hopelessly liberal.

 

Don't you know what seed is? Jews are people with the DNA of Abraham and Sarah.

You never told me if you have one of those everlasting covenants for you beliefs?

 

Paul knew exactly what he was saying when he wrote that the children of the promise are the seed of Abraham. Paul was educated in Pharisaism:

Philippians 3:4-6 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Did Paul place his faith in his Jewish bona fide? No.

Philippians 3:7-9 7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Paul had great affection for his Jewish brethren in the flesh:

Romans 9:1-2 1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

In fact, when Paul writes "all Israel will be saved" (Rom. 11:26), he is not referring to the Israel of the flesh. The argument can be convincingly made that the covenant Israel bloodline has been so diluted since the AD 70 dispersion that there is no way for there to be a wholesale calling of the covenant Jewish nation. However, the Israel of faith has never been dependent on genetics but by faith. In this way, all Israel will, indeed, be saved.

 

The bloodlines to Abraham and Sarah may be polluted but DNA is sophisticated enough to show that all humans probably came from Adam and Eve. It would not be too difficult to show that people who say that they are Jews probably have DNA different from your average bear. It is to the physical descendants of Abraham and Sarah through Isaac and Jacob that the land of Israel was promised because God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham, as you know. It is the DNA Jews that are the apple of God's eye forever.

If the Preterists and other Replacement Theologians were offered a place in the next holocaust they probably would decline for DNA reasons, admitting that they are not that kind of seed. They don't have an everlasting covenant and they are not the apple of God's eye.


Deuteronomy 32:10 (KJV) He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

Psalms 17:8 (KJV) Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

Proverbs 7:2 (KJV) Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Lamentations 2:18 (KJV) Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease.

Zechariah 2:8 (KJV) For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

 

Unbelievable.

 

Dave,

You said, If you view Israel from the NT, today's Jews are gentiles who call themselves Jews. Because circumcision, not blood made one a Jew.

Wrong. Being a Jew was determined by birth...from Jews whose lineage went back to the twelve tribes of Jacob.Circumcision was given as a sign for those who were already born as real Jews.

In Esther's day, many gentiles became Jews because of what the Jews did to Haman and his followers. Plus, a mixed multitude came up from Egypt in the Exodus..all Jews by circumcision.

So? How does that subtract real Jews who were birthed from parents who were real Jews?

Today's Jews exist for one reason. Their hatred and rejection of Christ. The Jews who accepted him remained Israel under Jesus. Who since then reigns in Heavenly Jerusalem above, on David's Throne Forever, not for 1000 years on earth.

That is completely wrong. The unbelieving Jews still exist after 2,000 yrs despite their rejection of Jesus because of the Abrahamic covenant which God promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob & their children until the end of the world & the millienial period when they will be given the land of promise. Jews who accepted Christ became what we call today, 'Messianic Jews'. They are both Christian and Jewish.

But you still...didn't ....answer....my questions.

I asked you; Which tribe of the 12 tribes of Israel you belong to and prove it by your family genealogy.

I asked you; What is the name of the person who will sit on the throne of David? Which kind of Jew is he...a real one or a pretender Jew that you have been railing against.

I asked you; What shall we do with the promise in Ezekiel concerning the land and the boundaries that Israel will be given. Ezek. 47:13-22.

I asked you; Why, if the modern state of Israel is not the object of the Abrahamic covenant have they won every single battle against all of their Arab neighbors since 1948?

I ask you kindly to please not avoid any of these four questions.

 

Israel is no friend of Christians and they definitely oppose Jesus - often violently.

That said, the closest friend of Jesus is either Athens or Ethiopia.

The failure of early Christians to fight to keep Israel, Egypt, and Turkey away from Islam has obvious consequences.

I think any help for Israel should only be in our self-interest.

But remember that the Islamic countries are far worse.

 

I've read the thread .... sorry to be late coming in.

Jesus explained what "seed" is:

Mat. 13:18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”​

See also Jesus' reason for teaching in parables - Mat. 13:10-16

Why did Jesus declare that Zacchaeus was a child of Abraham? Luke 19:1-10

9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”​

NOT by his DNA, but he heard the word of Jesus, repented, & showed his repentance by his changed life.

Being a Jew does not make a person a born again child of God, as John explained:

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

A Biblical covenant is essentially the promise of God, a promise of blessing usually on condition of obedience.

The "rainbow covenant" is an exception - a declaration of God providential care for the earth & is unconditional.

We can NEVER fulfill the condition of perfect obedience - that's where Jesus, THE Seed of Abraham comes in on our behalf.

God's first promise to Abram is in fact a covenant:

Gen. 12:2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”​

Restatements of that covenant promise make it clear that it is through the seed of Abraham that that promise will be realised, and the New Covenant writers explain that "seed" is singular, referring to the LORD Jesus Christ.

Certainly Abraham's descendants became a great nation (what is the Hebrew word used for "nation"?) & Joshua & Solomon acknowledge that fact. That aspect of the promise was fulfilled. They did possess the promised land. But was that promised land on earth what Abraham & the Patriarchs hoped for?

Heb. 11: 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
.....
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.​

The NH&NE is the ultimate promised land.

But only in Christ & the Gospel of salvation are all families, all nations blessed. That, of course, includes the Jews, whether or not they have the right DNA. Vast numbers responded to the preaching of John, & followed Jesus as directed by John. At Pentecost, 3,000 Jews from every nation responded, & 5,000 a few days later, then priests, then many thousands.

The idea that God has shut out his chosen people, the apple of his eye, for over 50 generations is repugnant. The Gospel of repentance & faith in Jesus Christ, God & Saviour, is open to all.

Many thousands of Jews believed and formed the church.

Acts 2:46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.​

Believing Jews took Jesus' warning & fled Jerusalem before the destruction of the city & of those who continued in rejection of their Messiah. They had learnt that now believing Gentiles were one body with them as the people of God, so there was no need to keep separate.

We have the New - Everlasting - Covenant in the blood of Jesus:

Heb. 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.​

But, is the modern Israel the fulfilment of OT prophecy? I think not - the state is built by those who reject Jesus & his Gospel, and who also reject the Law of Moses, & the teaching of the OT Prophets.

 

So Genesis is wrong?

 

How do define "everlasting"?

 

Sarcasm alert -
It is important to ignore context, related Scripture & especially the historical situation when establishing false doctrine.

Zechariah is one of the three post-exile prophets. (Also Haggai & Malachi.) Most prophets prophesied before or during the coming exile & prophesied the return from Babylon, & the coming Messiah who would be the fulfilment of God's promises. A glorious future for Israel through faith in Messiah, not a final restoration of a nation comprising those who persistently reject their Messiah & his Gospel.

Zechariah 2 context:

6 “Up, up! Flee from the land of the north,” says the Lord; “for I have spread you abroad like the four winds of heaven,” says the Lord. 7 “Up, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon.”
8 For thus says the Lord of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. 9 For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me.
10 “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord. 11 “Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 And the Lord will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all flesh, before the Lord, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!”​

When did the Lord come & dwell in their midst?

Zec. 9:9 “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.​

Did this happen?

Zec. 2:11 “Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.​

What did Jesus say?

Mat. 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.​

Are Gentile believers my people ?

2 Cor. 6:
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore
“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”
​

 

Unfortunately, you have no Scripture to back up any of your opinion.

Let's look at the contract again. Read it to yourself, please.

Genesis 12:7 (KJV) And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land....

Now, you are trying to insert circumcision since your first post, but you have to agree that circumcision is not in the contract. And then you are trying to expound Preterism or Replacement Theology, but the contract is to Abram's seed, which means his physical offspring from Sara, or Isaac and then Jacob.

Later in Genesis, it says that the contract is everlasting, which you defined as forever. So God gave the land to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants forever.

 

Does "forever" include the 2,000 years they haven't lived there?

What did Abraham & the Patriarchs understand by the promise? See Hebrews 11, quoted above.