The Function of the Law in the New Covenant

[Iconoclast]

"kyredneck,

Hello Kyred

Your disregard for the context of Romans 2.

My understanding depends on the context...so why do you imagine I would disregard the context???
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

What truth is that KYRED?

You say 'the work of law written in their hearts' of v 15 is a universal 'moral law' that everyone is born with, right?

What law do you believe it to be KYRED?

He is going to go on and explain that the gentiles without any scriptural knowledge at all....do the works of the LAW.....
KYRED....you cannot possibly be suggesting that they did the works of the law as described in the ceremonial , or judicial law..

But everywhere else in the chapter it's referring to the old covenant law, right?

I agree with you here Kyred. That is because the puffed up self righteous Jews trusted that they were pleasing God by their version of law keeping:
vs. 13 is the rebuke...
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Now he continues his indictment of them
vs;17-
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

How do you justify such inconsistency with the text?

Do you see how i am looking at the good verses you offered? They are specific to the Jews who had the oracles of God.

Is this your own thoughts or just what you go along with because it's 'orthodox'?

This is my take on it. The pastor I quote is the smartest person I have ever met face to face.....and I have met several solid godly persons.
Each one I have spoken with on this agree's.

It's what the theologians in your box espouses.

yes...it is biblical Kyred.

 

[Reformed]

This would make a good discussion. But Christ abolished the Sabbath as well. Had he not, you could not heat your home on Saturday in the dead of winter.

I have already addressed this here: post #53

In post #106 I made the point that the Sabbath is a creation ordinance:

Genesis 2:2-3 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

As a creation ordinance the Sabbath - now called the Lord's day - pre-dated the Decalogue.

We see that the Sabbath was also present after the Exodus but before Sinai and the formal giving of the Decalogue:

Exodus 16:22-26 22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses, 23 then he said to them, “This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.” 24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it. 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.”

The Sabbath as it was practiced by covenant Israel has changed. The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith adequately explains the change in substance and practice:

1689 LBC 22.7 As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.

Continued...

 

[Reformed]

...continued

For the second time I will address your concern about not being able to heat your house during the winter if we are to honor the Sabbath (Lord's) day:

1689 LBC 22.8 The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy*.

*Matthew 12:1-8 1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.” 3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, 4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? 5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? 6 But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

In the above passage, we clearly see that Jesus was showing that the Sabbath was not a prohibition against works of necessity. In this case the need to eat.

I am afraid we are talking past each other in regards to the Law of God and its moral aspect.
@Martin Marprelate and I have both made the connection between your antinomianism (rejection of the law) and NCT (New Covenant Theology). Your response was that you have not looked into NCT for quite some time. With all due respect (and with no intent to cause tension or division), you are articulating exactly what NCT teaches. In other words, your belief about the moral law of God is indistinguishable from NCT.

 

[kyredneck]

My understanding depends on the context...so why do you imagine I would disregard the context???
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

'Against'. That's ALL you see in the context, 'against'? Hell, hell, hell; hell on the brain, false believers lurking around every corner and hiding behind every bush, lying in wait to jump out and...do what Icon?

What truth is that KYRED?

Let's rightly divide it. His righteous judgement goes BOTH ways Icon:

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,

The judgement of God goes both ways Icon, not just 'against', but also 'for'. Thus:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

What law do you believe it to be KYRED?

This law Icon:

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he, Heb 10

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: Jer 31

3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh. 2 Cor 3

KYRED....you cannot possibly be suggesting that they did the works of the law as described in the ceremonial , or judicial law.

Now you're being ridiculous. A 'doer of the law' is simply a 'fulfiller of the law' as defined by Paul in this same letter to the Romans:

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

 

[1689Dave]

I have already addressed this here: post #53

In post #106 I made the point that the Sabbath is a creation ordinance:

Genesis 2:2-3 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

As a creation ordinance the Sabbath - now called the Lord's day - pre-dated the Decalogue.

We see that the Sabbath was also present after the Exodus but before Sinai and the formal giving of the Decalogue:

Exodus 16:22-26 22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses, 23 then he said to them, “This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.” 24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it. 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.”

The Sabbath as it was practiced by covenant Israel has changed. The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith adequately explains the change in substance and practice:

1689 LBC 22.7 As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.

Continued...

The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant. Just as Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant.But when Christ replaced the Old with the New, this included abolishing the Sabbath and circumcision. This is why Paul had so much trouble with the Jews trying to kill him. Plus, the ONLY portions of the law that strictly apply to us today are: “Therefore I conclude that we should not cause extra difficulty for those among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood.” (Acts 15:19–20) (NET)

Also notice: ““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3). Although we know Abraham kept God's precepts, and they had some sort of priesthood while in Egypt, we do not know what it involved. There are no explicit commands defining it.

But if Jeremiah and Hebrews got it wrong, and the Ten Commandments continued in the New Covenant, we must return to keeping all of it, which means rejecting Jesus.

 

[1689Dave]

It was also righteousness that drove Jesus to the cross. 'Whom God set forth as a propitiation.......to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus' (Romans 3:25-26).

Love IS righteousness. Legalism is not.

 

[1689Dave]

Actually,Jesus died to also honor and glorify the father, as he would die in the stead of sinners in order to bring glory to the plan and purpose of God on display in the Cross!

Because of Love.

 

[Reformed]

The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant. JUst as Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant.But when Christ replaced the Old with the New, this included abolishing the Sabbath and circumcision. This is why Paul had so much trouble with the Jews trying to kill him. Plus, the ONLY portions of the law that strictly apply to us today are: “Therefore I conclude that we should not cause extra difficulty for those among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood.” (Acts 15:19–20) (NET)

Also notice: ““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3). Although we know Abraham kept God's precepts, and they had some sort of priesthood while in Egypt, we do not know what it involved. There are no explicit commands defining it.

But if Jeremiah and Hebrews got it wrong, and the Ten Commandments continued in the New Covenant, we must return to keeping all of it, which means rejecting Jesus.

We are in basic disagreement. Enough has been said on this and to continue the discussion along these lines will result in similar responses from the both of us.

Peace.

 

[1689Dave]

We are in basic disagreement. Enough has been said on this and to continue the discussion along these lines will result in similar responses from the both of us.

Peace.

I would put bible above creed.

 

[Iconoclast]

I would put bible above creed.

Everyone puts the bible above a written statement.
Your defective statement is a creed by the way.
The first thing any confession does is comment on scripture.how it is primary.
You suggest that the writers did not consider scripture at all,when in fact they put forth many more scriptures than you.

 

[Reformed]

I would put bible above creed.

I do as well. I do not subscribe to the 1689 LBC because I think it is on par with scripture. I subscribe to it because I believe it rightly interprets scripture. Also, I am honest with the one exception I take with it. I do not believe the Pope is the anti-Christ. I believe the Pope, and Roman Catholicism as a whole, is the spirit of anti-Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

I do as well. I do not subscribe to the 1689 LBC because I think it is on par with scripture. I subscribe to it because I believe it rightly interprets scripture. Also, I am honest with the one exception I take with it. I do not believe the Pope is the anti-Christ. I believe the Pope, and Roman Catholicism as a whole, is the spirit of anti-Christ.

Thanks for sharing. Most of my position comes from the Reformed camp. But some are not as locked into the creeds as others. But if God replaced the Old Covenant completely with the New, as Jeremiah says, none of the Old, including Sabbath & Circumcision made it into the New. And nowhere in the NT does it say so. Paul nearly died several times proving my point.

 

[Reformed]

Thanks for sharing. Most of my position comes from the Reformed camp. But some are not as locked into the creeds as others. But if God replaced the Old Covenant completely with the New, as Jeremiah says, none of the Old, including Sabbath & Circumcision made it into the New. And nowhere in the NT does it say so. Paul nearly died several times proving my point.

Dave,

And the point I am making, which seems to be lost by antinomians, is that the moral law predates the Decalogue because it traces its origin to the Garden. It alone is an eternal law because it is the divine knowledge of right and wrong and has been testified as such by the prophets, Christ, and the Apostles. The judicial and ceremonial aspects of the Law were done away with because they were fulfilled in Christ. However, "be holy as I am holy" is still commanded today and is epitomized by the moral law of God. No one is justified by keeping it (because they cannot keep it) but every man is accountable to it (Romans 1:20). I will not yield on this point because I cannot yield on it.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant. Just as Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant.But when Christ replaced the Old with the New, this included abolishing the Sabbath and circumcision. This is why Paul had so much trouble with the Jews trying to kill him. Plus, the ONLY portions of the law that strictly apply to us today are: “Therefore I conclude that we should not cause extra difficulty for those among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood.” (Acts 15:19–20) (NET)

Also notice: ““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3). Although we know Abraham kept God's precepts, and they had some sort of priesthood while in Egypt, we do not know what it involved. There are no explicit commands defining it.

But if Jeremiah and Hebrews got it wrong, and the Ten Commandments continued in the New Covenant, we must return to keeping all of it, which means rejecting Jesus.

You did

Thanks for sharing. Most of my position comes from the Reformed camp. But some are not as locked into the creeds as others. But if God replaced the Old Covenant completely with the New, as Jeremiah says, none of the Old, including Sabbath & Circumcision made it into the New. And nowhere in the NT does it say so. Paul nearly died several times proving my point.

Heb4:9 indicates otherwise....there remains the keeping of a sabbath..
Does not mean it is found in Jesus eternally.....which is true, but it means the keeping of a day.

 

[1689Dave]

Heb4:9 indicates otherwise....there remains the keeping of a sabbath..
Does not mean it is found in Jesus eternally.....which is true, but it means the keeping of a day.

This is the spiritual Sabbath we experience in Christ when we cease from "keeping the physical Sabbath" and the rest of the Law. Trusting in his righteousness instead of our own.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave,

And the point I am making, which seems to be lost by antinomians, is that the moral law predates the Decalogue because it traces its origin to the Garden. It alone is an eternal law because it is the divine knowledge of right and wrong and has been testified as such by the prophets, Christ, and the Apostles. The judicial and ceremonial aspects of the Law were done away with because they were fulfilled in Christ. However, "be holy as I am holy" is still commanded today and is epitomized by the moral law of God. No one is justified by keeping it (because they cannot keep it) but every man is accountable to it (Romans 1:20). I will not yield on this point because I cannot yield on it.

The Law you speak of is the Two Great Commandments. The Ten Commandments hung from them at a level wicked people could relate to. The Two Great remain, the Ten do not. Love, not obligation and fear of material loss as with the Ten, determines good works in the NT.

 

[JonShaff]

This is the spiritual Sabbath we experience in Christ when we cease from "keeping the physical Sabbath" and the rest of the Law. Trusting in his righteousness instead of our own.

Brother, they want to put a yoke upon God's people again. It's evident in their "fruit inspection" mentality. It's modern day Pharisaism.

The Law is Good and Holy, "If one Uses it Correctly."

 

[Yeshua1]

I do as well. I do not subscribe to the 1689 LBC because I think it is on par with scripture. I subscribe to it because I believe it rightly interprets scripture. Also, I am honest with the one exception I take with it. I do not believe the Pope is the anti-Christ. I believe the Pope, and Roman Catholicism as a whole, is the spirit of anti-Christ.

Yes, as is any other religion of this world, as they all deny the Lord Jesus as scriptures describe Him as being.
I would tend to see papacy more as a False prophet in end times...

 

[Yeshua1]

This is the spiritual Sabbath we experience in Christ when we cease from "keeping the physical Sabbath" and the rest of the Law. Trusting in his righteousness instead of our own.

We are still obligated to a day of rest though, even under the NC. correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

I would put bible above creed.

NO Reformed or Baptist that posts here would place any Creed/Confession on same par as the Bible, as the scriptures Alone were inspired by God.