Law/Nt/Legalism/Antinomiam thought/kitchen sink...pt3

[Iconoclast]

Kyred.....in the midst of the text in Romans 2....Paul offers a truth the stands in and out of the context.

The heathen did not have the written oracles of God......and yet...somehow they occasional do....the works contained in the written law.....get it?
It was meant as a rebuke to unbelieving Israelites, and yet it is a stand alone truth explaining how all men are guilty before God.

Romans 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;Facebook - Log In or Sign Up


9 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[JonShaff]

@Iconoclast

Maybe you can help me understand where you are coming from. In a pithy statement--Please explain to me the difference between the OT and NT? Thanks in advance!

 

[Iconoclast]

Jon

Maybe you can help me understand where you are coming from. In a pithy statement--Please explain to me the difference between the OT and NT? Thanks in advance!

The moral law has existed since creation.
It was passed on to a nation{Israel} EXTERNALLY...ON TWO TABLETS OF STONE....In the First Exodus In which the 10 commandments were explained in detail and interwoven in the fabric of what became the ceremonial and judicial laws.....this is demonstrable in Deut.
In Christ the Spirit places the 10 in our heart and minds, and the rest of the NT....explains the 10 in terms of our New life In Christ...sermon on the mount, all the epistles....like Deut. did, but now it is internal and sure by the ministry of the Spirit working in us....faith working through love,Rom13:8-10 Hebrews 8.

Maybe i just do not articulate my thoughts well?

This happens to all persons. You are putting forth your current ideas...I am suggesting you keep looking into this...so a clash is quite possible.

I love God's law--but We are not under it.

??? You love God's law so much you look to get away from it?
I think you partially mean this...
We are not under law as if keeping it can save us.....we can agree here.
As a believer I love God's law,and ask for grace to be kept in the law word of God.

We are under the Direction of the Spirit and the Word--under the Covenant of the New Testament in the Blood and Righteousness of Christ.

Yes.....Under the direction of the Spirit......AND THE WORD....except for any of the law
Thou shalt not steal.....as an example....should not be burdensome to a believer should it?

AND the Lord Jesus Lives in me!

yes...

I love the entirety of the OT--it's God's Word! Christ is the OT manifested in the Flesh. But where we may differ is the intentions of certain aspects of the Law.

yes...some differences....

The Law blessed God's people by Restricting evil from those who did not love God or People. Does that not make sense to you?[/QUOTE]
This makes more sense to me..

From the other thread for Dave;

Moses did not share your point of view Dave....it seems to be quite different; DEUT4
5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.

6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

This was given to them to be noticed by the nations

 

[1689Dave]

Jon


The moral law has existed since creation.
It was passed on to a nation{Israel} EXTERNALLY...ON TWO TABLETS OF STONE....In the First Exodus In which the 10 commandments were explained in detail and interwoven in the fabric of what became the ceremonial and judicial laws.....this is demonstrable in Deut.
In Christ the Spirit places the 10 in our heart and minds, and the rest of the NT....explains the 10 in terms of our New life In Christ...sermon on the mount, all the epistles....like Deut. did, but now it is internal and sure by the ministry of the Spirit working in us....faith working through love,Rom13:8-10 Hebrews 8.


This happens to all persons. You are putting forth your current ideas...I am suggesting you keep looking into this...so a clash is quite possible.


??? You love God's law so much you look to get away from it?
I think you partially mean this...
We are not under law as if keeping it can save us.....we can agree here.
As a believer I love God's law,and ask for grace to be kept in the law word of God.

Yes.....Under the direction of the Spirit......AND THE WORD....except for any of the law
Thou shalt not steal.....as an example....should not be burdensome to a believer should it?


yes...



yes...some differences....

no Ten Commandments before sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

 

[JonShaff]

@Iconoclast

We still seem to have a disconnect--I said this in the other thread

BUT the law does not cause obedience...THE SPIRIT Does...

Galatians 5
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

How does the Law promote obedience to the practical righteousness of God? God doesn't need a law does He? Christ didn't need a law did He?

 

[JonShaff]

@Iconoclast

How does 1 Tim. 1 fit into our discussion?

5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. (Sounds like these threads )


8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound[c] doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

 

[Iconoclast]

no Ten Commandments before sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

Others have made it clear to you ....they did exist...all ten.
You do not welcome this.....I do...so there we are.

 

[1689Dave]

Others have made it clear to you ....they did exist...all ten.
You do not welcome this.....I do...so there we are.

Scripture says otherwise: No Ten Commandments before sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

There is no record of the laws preceding the Ten Commandments. The Laws could have been civil or religious, but nowhere does it define them. But this we know for sure, the Ten Commandments did not exist in any form before Sinai.

 

[JonShaff]

Others have made it clear to you ....they did exist...all ten.
You do not welcome this.....I do...so there we are.

I would argue that the Standard of God's Righteousness always existed (which is perfect love) and that the Law reveals that we fall short of it--i do not believe it's accurate to say that the law *clearly* existed--

Romans 5
13For sin was in the world before the Law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

The Law cannot promote practical righteousness--Only Faith Working by Love can do that--through His Spirit. The Law isn't the Standard of God's love--GOD HIMSELF is the standard. Maybe that is our disconnect in these conversations?

 

[Reformed]

Scripture says otherwise: No Ten Commandments before sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

There is no record of the laws preceding the Ten Commandments. The Laws could have been civil or religious, but nowhere does it define them. But this we know for sure, the Ten Commandments did not exist in any form before Sinai.

So, here we have one of those impasses I spoke about. Many of us have shown, from scripture, that every part of the Decalogue existed before the tablets of stone in Exodus 20. You disagree. It is what it is. Neither side has been persuaded to change it's view so far, and I doubt that is going to change. Time to move on to another topic like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[1689Dave]

So, here we have one of those impasses I spoke about. Many of us have shown, from scripture, that everyone part of the Decalogue existed before the tablets of stone in Exodus 20. You disagree. It is what it is. Neither side has been persuaded to change it's view so far, and I doubt anything is going to change. Time to move on to another topic like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Shouldn't scripture settle it? Moving on does not resolve the issue.
No Ten Commandments before sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

 

[Reformed]

Shouldn't scripture settle it? Moving on does not resolve the issue.
No Ten Commandments before sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

Both sides have used scripture. I do not accept your conclusion as to what scripture teaches and you not accept mine. What else do you want to do? After a while the argument is exhausted and there is nothing new left to say.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[1689Dave]

Both sides have used scripture. I do not accept your conclusion as to what scripture teaches and you not accept mine. What else do you want to do? After a while the argument is exhausted and there is nothing new left to say.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Where is your scriptural proof saying other than what Moses said? ““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

 

[Reformed]

Where is your scriptural proof saying other than what Moses said? ““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

I am not going to repost my comments or the comments of others. You have read them. I do not need to have the last word. I am moving on. Adieu.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Iconoclast]

1689Dave,

You have two errors that obscure the truth from you.

Scripture says otherwise: No Ten Commandments before sinai

Scripture does not say that, but indicates otherwise

“

“The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

You continue to confuse the ten commandments as it only was the Covenant.

There is no record of the laws preceding the Ten Commandments.

There is no record saying they did not exist, but all the other teaching supports it as you have been shown...if you cannot see it, you cannot.

The Laws could have been civil or religious, but nowhere does it define them.

So...to you...these "other laws" which were not the ten commandments, as you are sure they did not exist before Sinai....were something else, but you are 100% it was not the ten???

But this we know for sure, the Ten Commandments did not exist in any form before Sinai.

You know no such thing

 

[1689Dave]

I am not going to repost my comments or the comments of others. You have read them. I do not need to have the last word. I am moving on. Adieu.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I have yet to read a passage that contradicts Moses. But I believe when we understand that the Two Great Commandments preceded the Ten, we will better grasp the purpose of the Old Covenant and why it no longer exists in any form.

 

[1689Dave]

1689Dave,

You have two errors that obscure the truth from you.


Scripture does not say that, but indicates otherwise

“

You continue to confuse the ten commandments as it only was the Covenant.


There is no record saying they did not exist, but all the other teaching supports it as you have been shown...if you cannot see it, you cannot.


So...to you...these "other laws" which were not the ten commandments, as you are sure they did not exist before Sinai....were something else, but you are 100% it was not the ten???


You know no such thing

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

 

[JonShaff]

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

If Only Abraham had the writings of Moses.

Romans 5
13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses


Romans 3
20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Romans 7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

God is the standard--and obedience to God's Word with the right motivation (Only God can tell that) is a demonstration of Faith--alive Faith.

I don't know...i'm just a simple guy--trying to keep things simple.

 

[Iconoclast]

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?

35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.

37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

38 To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day.

39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lordhe is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee, for ever.

The Covenant had to do with Redemption.....the directions were given after ....just as in the NT.

 

[1689Dave]

34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?

35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.

37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

38 To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day.

39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lordhe is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee, for ever.

The Covenant had to do with Redemption.....the directions were given after ....just as in the NT.

But................... The Ten Commandments did not exist until Sinai. And you are ignoring Moses' own words that say so. No Ten Commandments before sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)