Law/Nt/Legalism/Antinomiam thought/kitchen sink...pt3

[Martin Marprelate]

@JonShaff wrote:

Maybe we are talking past each other?

Love Seeks God. The Law "restricts evil". Love creates desires. Law suppresses evil desires. Love has proper motivation. It's all about Christ in us--the hope of Glory. Many people (including on this thread) have yet to speak of Christ living in them for any aspect of practical righteousness--which the law cannot produce.

I have said more than once that it is only the one who is born again by the Spirit of God, indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, whose 'delight is in the law of the LORD' (Psalm 1:2); who cries out, "Oh how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day" (Psalm 119:97). I think that you and other have the wrong view of the law.

Unconverted people hate God's law because it condemns them and they think it spoils their fun. Saved people want to keep His law, not in order to be saved, but because they are saved. The law has ceased to be a schoolmaster standing over them, cane in hand, ready to condemn them, and has become their friend and their guide through life (Psalm 119:35 etc.).

'The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.' (1689 Confession XIX:7).

 

[JonShaff]

@JonShaff wrote:

I have said more than once that it is only the one who is born again by the Spirit of God, indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, whose 'delight is in the law of the LORD' (Psalm 1:2); who cries out, "Oh how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day" (Psalm 119:97). I think that you and other have the wrong view of the law.

Unconverted people hate God's law because it condemns them and they think it spoils their fun. Saved people want to keep His law, not in order to be saved, but because they are saved. The law has ceased to be a schoolmaster standing over them, cane in hand, ready to condemn them, and has become their friend and their guide through life (Psalm 119:35 etc.).

'The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.' (1689 Confession XIX:7).

I said this Earlier (in the Other thread), That when the Psalmist Speaks of the Law, he's not merely talking about the 10 commandments--He's speaking of God's dealings with Israel concerning Redemption and His Covenant Love Towards them. "the Law" from the Psalmist's Point of View is the entire Narrative History of God's dealings with the Israelites--because the Law and redemptive history in the OT are fused together.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

But................... The Ten Commandments did not exist until Sinai. And you are ignoring Moses' own words that say so. No Ten Commandments before sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

You can keep saying this until you're blue I the face, but that won't make it true.
Joseph asked, How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" (Genesis 39:9). How did he know it was a sin, and specifically a sin against God?

 

[JonShaff]

You can keep saying this until you're blue I the face, but that won't make it true.
Joseph asked, How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" (Genesis 39:9). How did he know it was a sin, and specifically a sin against God?

Because he didn't want to do to others what he didn't want to be done to him (love neighbor as yourself)? Maybe the Royal Law of LOVE predates Sinai?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I said this Earlier (in the Other thread), That when the Psalmist Speaks of the Law, he's not merely talking about the 10 commandments--He's speaking of God's dealings with Israel concerning Redemption and His Covenant Love Towards them. "the Law" from the Psalmist's Point of View is the entire Narrative History of God's dealings with the Israelites--because the Law and redemptive history in the OT are fused together.

That will depend on the context. In Psalm 119 especially, the laws, precepts, commandments etc. are just that. 'I have sworn and confirm that I will keep Your righteous judgements' (v.106). How could he keep 'the entire narrative of God's dealings with the Israelites'?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Because he didn't want to do to others what he didn't want to be done to him (love neighbor as yourself)? Maybe the Royal Law of LOVE predates Sinai?

But how then was it a sin against God?

 

[TCassidy]

I see an unfortunate conflation of the Law with the Tablets containing the Decalogue.

In law there are two separate but equal expressions.

#1 Common Law. Laws derived from custom and judicial precedent rather than statutes. Paul speaks of this in Romans 2, of the Gentiles who have not the Law (the Decalogue) have the Law written on their hearts and consciences. This was the Law prior to the giving of the Decalogue, when everybody was still a Gentile, prior to Abraham.

#2 Codified or Statuary Law. The law written down (codified) in the Decalogue. The Tablets containing the 10 Commandments.

The principles codified in the 10 Commandments existed in the hearts, consciences, customs, and precedent from the time of Adam, but were only Codified in the Tablets of the Decalogue in the time of Moses.

This is a very simple concept and ought not to be the source of such silly bickering in two (count em, two) threads.

 

[JonShaff]

That will depend on the context. In Psalm 119 especially, the laws, precepts, commandments etc. are just that. 'I have sworn and confirm that I will keep Your righteous judgements' (v.106). How could he keep 'the entire narrative of God's dealings with the Israelites'?

Some translations have "Ordinances" or "Instruction" or "Rules" or "laws"(i'm not by my Logos program so i cannot do a word study right now lol ) Like i said, Maybe he's thinking about the commands to Keep the Holy Days--and how he loves celebrating Passover because it reminds him of God's Love towards His people by redeeming them from Egypt.

 

[JonShaff]

But how then was it a sin against God?

If Joseph's heart was circumcised then he would be consciously aware of God--who else would he be accountable to?

 

[Yeshua1]

no Ten Commandments before sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

The Moral law of God is eternal, as they derive form His very character!

 

[Yeshua1]

You can keep saying this until you're blue I the face, but that won't make it true.
Joseph asked, How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" (Genesis 39:9). How did he know it was a sin, and specifically a sin against God?

The Law of God is the very moral standards that a Holy God has placed into His creation for us to abide by, in order to have a good pathway to walk upon!

 

[Yeshua1]

If Joseph's heart was circumcised then he would be consciously aware of God--who else would he be accountable to?

Do you think that we holding to more a Reformed viewpoint would be saying we have to obey the Law of God in order to get saved then?

 

[JonShaff]

Do you think that we holding to more a Reformed viewpoint would be saying we have to obey the Law of God in order to get saved then?

First, i appreciate you asking questions--that makes it more of a discussion.

And to answer your question--No, i do not believe that you guys think obeying the Law is a means to salvation. I think you guys tend to use it as a means for "fruit inspection" for other believers to judge their salvation. That's just my opinion though.

Also, i think some think that Obedience to the Law is some way of living out practical righteousness--Which is why i believe people are living a self-condemning life---they are thinking they are pleasing God by constantly walking out the 10 commandments when God uses them to judge people.

 

[Yeshua1]

First, i appreciate you asking questions--that makes it more of a discussion.

And to answer your question--No, i do not believe that you guys think obeying the Law is a means to salvation. I think you guys tend to use it as a means for "fruit inspection" for other believers to judge their salvation. That's just my opinion though.

Also, i think some think that Obedience to the Law is some way of living out practical righteousness--Which is why i believe people are living a self-condemning life---they are thinking they are pleasing God by constantly walking out the 10 commandments when God uses them to judge people.

What do you think it means when even in the NT, the Apostles wanted us to obey the commands of God and Christ?

 

[JonShaff]

Also, i think some think that Obedience to the Law is some way of living out practical righteousness--Which is why i believe people are living a self-condemning life---they are thinking they are pleasing God by constantly walking out the 10 commandments when God uses them to judge people.

I'll give an example:

I know a guy who is ate up with "not committing adultery" on his wife and he focuses on making sure he isn't looking at women, talking to women, watching things he shouldn't, having wrong thoughts...all he thinks on is "do not commit adultery". All he focuses on is the struggle.

I told him, Bro, you have to Read Romans 8 and understand and believe that the Spirit in you brings you victory and that you should focus your thoughts and time on actively loving God, your wife--serving and ministering to them.

And you know what? He said that has been a total relief to him....Christ condemned sin at the Cross, we are No longer slaves to it and that we are now free to Love! We have been set free! Believe it, Live it! He stopped focusing on "make sure i do not commit adultery" and he Started focusing on Loving his wife through the power of God's Spirit according to God's Word.

I asked him, "Do you have any desire to cheat on your wife?" And he said absolutely not. So i asked him, "Then why are you focusing all of your efforts on "not doing something you don't want to do anyway"...start focusing your efforts on sacrificially loving your wife."

Yes i understand, not committing adultery is a good sign that you love your wife. But someone can neglect loving their wife and not be in adultery whatsoever.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'll give an example:

I know a guy who is ate up with "not committing adultery" on his wife and he focuses on making sure he isn't looking at women, talking to women, watching things he shouldn't, having wrong thoughts...all he thinks on is "do not commit adultery". All he focuses on is the struggle.

I told him, Bro, you have to Read Romans 8 and understand and believe that the Spirit in you brings you victory and that you should focus your thoughts and time on actively loving God, your wife--serving and ministering to them.

And you know what? He said that has been a total relief to him....Christ condemned sin at the Cross, we are No longer slaves to it and that we are now free to Love! We have been set free! Believe it, Live it! He stopped focusing on "make sure i do not commit adultery" and he Started focusing on Loving his wife through the power of God's Spirit according to God's Word.

I asked him, "Do you have any desire to cheat on your wife?" And he said absolutely not. So i asked him, "Then why are you focusing all of your efforts on "not doing something you don't want to do anyway"...start focusing your efforts on sacrificially loving your wife."

Yes i understand, not committing adultery is a good sign that you love your wife. But someone can neglect loving their wife and not be in adultery whatsoever.

What standard told him that committing adultery would be wrong and sinful though?

 

[JonShaff]

What standard told him that committing adultery would be wrong and sinful though?

But he wasn't committing adultery in any way whatsoever. Did you not get the point of my story?

 

[JonShaff]

Maybe i'm stepping out on a limb by saying this--You are not going to be "producing fruit for Jesus" if all you do is try to not break the 10 commandments. I believe that is exactly what the Pharisees did--guarded themselves from breaking the law--and then self-righteousness ensued.

 

[1689Dave]

The Moral law of God is eternal, as they derive form His very character!

This is true of the Two Great Commandments. But not of the Ten. God used the Ten to harness the greed of the wicked Jews to control them. If they were good, it was because their greed could acquire more from God than if they were bad. But they never loved God. Nor were they obedient for the sake of love. These same people many times burnt their children alive and worshipped idols.

“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:8–10) (KJV 1900)

“Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary.” (Galatians 3:19) (NET)

But the born again faithful among them had the Two Great Commandments in their hearts. God did not need to offer rewards for obedience and threaten them with loss to motivate them to obedience. They genuinely loved God and wanted to be good. These obeyed the Ten Commandments in their sleep, and did far better than the Ten Commandments ever required.

“Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Romans 13:10) (KJV 1900)

“If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:” (James 2:8) (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

You can keep saying this until you're blue I the face, but that won't make it true.
Joseph asked, How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" (Genesis 39:9). How did he know it was a sin, and specifically a sin against God?

There are TWO different sets of Laws in the bible. The Two Great Commandments, James calls the Royal Law. These are for born again believers like Abraham.

And there are the temporary Ten Commandments, for wicked unbelievers. These forced the wicked under threat of death to do good things, even if they were reluctant in doing them. Jesus abolished these on the cross when he stripped the unbelievers from Israel under Christ.