Law/Nt/Legalism/Antinomiam thought/kitchen sink...pt3

[1689Dave]

34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?

35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.

37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

38 To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day.

39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lordhe is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee, for ever.

The Covenant had to do with Redemption.....the directions were given after ....just as in the NT.

The Old Covenant saved No One. “Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21) (KJV 1900)

 

[Iconoclast]

The Old Covenant saved No One. “Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21) (KJV 1900)

You are very confused as I see in Hebrews 11 there were many old Covenant Saints

 

[Yeshua1]

There are TWO different sets of Laws in the bible. The Two Great Commandments, James calls the Royal Law. These are for born again believers like Abraham.

And there are the temporary Ten Commandments, for wicked unbelievers. These forced the wicked under threat of death to do good things, even if they were reluctant in doing them. Jesus abolished these on the cross when he stripped the unbelievers from Israel under Christ.

Except that the 10 were not separated apart, as Jesus and the NT Apostles all brought back to us the 10, not hte 2 Commandments!

 

[Yeshua1]

Maybe i'm stepping out on a limb by saying this--You are not going to be "producing fruit for Jesus" if all you do is try to not break the 10 commandments. I believe that is exactly what the Pharisees did--guarded themselves from breaking the law--and then self-righteousness ensued.

We strive to obey them, by walking in the empowering of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

1689Dave,

There are TWO different sets of Laws in the bible.

This is a ficticious novelty.

The Two Great Commandments, James calls the Royal Law. These are for born again believers like Abraham.

And there are the temporary Ten Commandments, for wicked unbelievers.

These forced the wicked under threat of death to do good things, even if they were reluctant in doing them

.

Do not remember this in scripture...do you have examples of this?

Jesus abolished these on the cross when he stripped the unbelievers from Israel under Christ.

This is not recorded in scripture....

 

[Iconoclast]

1689Dave,

This is true of the Two Great Commandments. But not of the Ten. God used the Ten to harness the greed of the wicked Jews to control them.

let's see if scripture teaches what Dave says....
Deut 6:
Deuteronomy 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the Lord your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:

2 That thou mightest fear the Lord thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

There is no indication of Daves ideas...in fact it shows the opposite.

If they were good, it was because their greed could acquire more from God

And yet God said it was a promised blessing not greed as Dave suggests

 

[Iconoclast]

Some have claimed this....

And there are the temporary Ten Commandments, for wicked unbelievers.

God used the Ten to harness the greed of the wicked Jews to control them

Jesus obeyed all ten commandments....all the time
lk4 :8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve

Was Jesus a lawkeeper?or a "wicked unbeliever"...

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

deut8/lk4

8 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers.

2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live

4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

 

[kyredneck]

The Old Covenant saved No One. “Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21) (KJV 1900)

You are very confused as I see in Hebrews 11 there were many old Covenant Saints

No Icon, YOU'RE the one confused if you believe that the ministration of death 'regenerated' and sent anyone to heaven. Very confused you are.

 

[kyredneck]

Kyred.....in the midst of the text in Romans 2....Paul offers a truth the stands in and out of the context.

Icon I know you're one of those 'faith alone' people (albeit not in reality). Would you give the reformed spin on this passage?:

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2

 

[kyredneck]

The heathen did not have the written oracles of God

9 .....of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 ,,,,to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law ......

I know 'heathen' fits the reformed spin here, but the idea is 'non-Jews, with the theme being 'God is no respecter of persons', which begs the question of 3:1.

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?

 

[1689Dave]

Except that the 10 were not separated apart, as Jesus and the NT Apostles all brought back to us the 10, not hte 2 Commandments!

The Ten Commandments are the abolished Old Covenant. Only the Two Great Commandments remain. ““Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord.” (Jeremiah 31:31–32) (NET)

 

[Iconoclast]

9 .....of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 ,,,,to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law ......

I know 'heathen' fits the reformed spin here, but the idea is 'non-Jews, with the theme being 'God is no respecter of persons', which begs the question of 3:1.

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?

Sorry Kyred....I used a biblical reference...try gal3:8
Where Paul put a reformed spin on it.....He was part of the clique I suppose....In Romans 2:6,7 Paul continues his reformed spin speaking of the good works that were ordained for the elect that give evidence of their election at the last day.eph2:10
Shouldn't you be playing out in the garden burying some seeds...?

 

[Iconoclast]

No Icon, YOU'RE the one confused if you believe that the ministration of death 'regenerated' and sent anyone to heaven. Very confused you are.

So...you are saying there are no ot.saints
Where did I say that law saved or persons?
Get a grip on yourself my friend

 

[kyredneck]

the good works that were ordained for the elect that give evidence of their election

The good works of Romans 2 is giving evidence that God has wrought within them [John 3:21; Hebrews 10:16; Jeremiah 31:33; 2 Corinthians 3:3]], i.e., "the work of the law written in their heart", "he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit..".

They're "patient in well-doing" v. 7, 'working good' v. 10, 'doing the law' v. 13, because THEY"RE ALIVE, they're regenerate, not some 'partially depraved' heathen who gets lucky every now and then and does something right.

 

[Iconoclast]

The good works of Romans 2 is giving evidence that God has wrought within them [John 3:21; Hebrews 10:16; Jeremiah 31:33; 2 Corinthians 3:3]], i.e., "the work of the law written in their heart", "he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit..".

They're "patient in well-doing" v. 7, 'working good' v. 10, 'doing the law' v. 13, because THEY"RE ALIVE, they're regenerate, not some 'partially depraved' heathen who gets lucky every now and then and does something right.

I agree with most everything you posted here except your last sentence about the heathen. They are brought up and Romans to as an example to unbelieving Jews that even Heathen who did not have the written word of God are still able to do some of the things contained in the law without having seen or heard the law because it's impressed in them even though it's damaged by the Fall they still have the impress of God's moral law on themselves but in the Fallen condition so the Heathen that are brought up by Paul who do the works of the wall are not the regenerate people you're speaking about but he's using them as an example to the Jews that even unsaved Heathen can do some of the things in the law .
you're misunderstanding his use of that just for the Gentiles which have not the law.
they don't have the formal written law

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I'll give an example:

I know a guy who is ate up with "not committing adultery" on his wife and he focuses on making sure he isn't looking at women, talking to women, watching things he shouldn't, having wrong thoughts...all he thinks on is "do not commit adultery". All he focuses on is the struggle.

I told him, Bro, you have to Read Romans 8 and understand and believe that the Spirit in you brings you victory and that you should focus your thoughts and time on actively loving God, your wife--serving and ministering to them.

And you know what? He said that has been a total relief to him....Christ condemned sin at the Cross, we are No longer slaves to it and that we are now free to Love! We have been set free! Believe it, Live it! He stopped focusing on "make sure i do not commit adultery" and he Started focusing on Loving his wife through the power of God's Spirit according to God's Word.

I asked him, "Do you have any desire to cheat on your wife?" And he said absolutely not. So i asked him, "Then why are you focusing all of your efforts on "not doing something you don't want to do anyway"...start focusing your efforts on sacrificially loving your wife."

Yes i understand, not committing adultery is a good sign that you love your wife. But someone can neglect loving their wife and not be in adultery whatsoever.

First of all, obeying the seventh commandment and loving one's wife are not mutually exclusive!!
But I am actively engaged in counselling an old friend of mine- not a member of my church- who has been committing adultery on a pretty industrial scale, but who insists that he loves his wife and loves God, and therefore he's not under law but under 'grace.' It's just that his wife can't meet his 'needs.' Unsurprisingly, his wife is not very happy about this. As I talk to the guy, he comes across as a Christian, but very badly taught (Salvation Army background).

I'm sure that if I told him that it's OK for him to carry on seeing prostitutes so long as he loves his wife, it would be a 'total relief to him.' But the fact is that he is mocking God. 'Why do you call me, "Lord, Lord," and not do what I say?' (Luke 6:46). He needs to obey the 7th commandment and seek the forgiveness of both his wife and, especially, God (Psalm 51:4).

I would love to say that this is the only example of this that I've come across, but I expect that most people on the board who have been involved in church oversight will have come across folk who say they love God but won't keep his commandments.

And I have to say that if the fellow you're talking about starts committing adultery because you have told him not to focus on the commandment, you will be sharing the blame for it (James 3:1). It's not 'either.....or,' it's 'both.......and.' If he accepts Romans 8 and Ephesians 5, it should be his delight to keep Exodus 20:14.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The good works of Romans 2 is giving evidence that God has wrought within them [John 3:21; Hebrews 10:16; Jeremiah 31:33; 2 Corinthians 3:3]], i.e., "the work of the law written in their heart", "he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit..".

They're "patient in well-doing" v. 7, 'working good' v. 10, 'doing the law' v. 13, because THEY"RE ALIVE, they're regenerate, not some 'partially depraved' heathen who gets lucky every now and then and does something right.

You are completely misunderstanding the purpose of Paul in Romans 1:18 - 3:20. It is to prove that no one is righteous and to shut both Jew and Gentile up to Christ. The very point he's making is that Gentiles, even though they don't know the law sometimes keep it better than Jews. 'What shall we say then? Are we [Jews] any better than they? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written.................therefore no-one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law' (Romans 3:9-20).

 

[Yeshua1]

The Ten Commandments are the abolished Old Covenant. Only the Two Great Commandments remain. ““Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord.” (Jeremiah 31:31–32) (NET)

The 10 Commandments, the very Law of God as to what he expects for standards of morality, cam to us before Sinai, so why just be OT?

 

[JonShaff]

First of all, obeying the seventh commandment and loving one's wife are not mutually exclusive!!
But I am actively engaged in counselling an old friend of mine- not a member of my church- who has been committing adultery on a pretty industrial scale, but who insists that he loves his wife and loves God, and therefore he's not under law but under 'grace.' It's just that his wife can't meet his 'needs.' Unsurprisingly, his wife is not very happy about this. As I talk to the guy, he comes across as a Christian, but very badly taught (Salvation Army background).

I'm sure that if I told him that it's OK for him to carry on seeing prostitutes so long as he loves his wife, it would be a 'total relief to him.' But the fact is that he is mocking God. 'Why do you call me, "Lord, Lord," and not do what I say?' (Luke 6:46). He needs to obey the 7th commandment and seek the forgiveness of both his wife and, especially, God (Psalm 51:4).

I would love to say that this is the only example of this that I've come across, but I expect that most people on the board who have been involved in church oversight will have come across folk who say they love God but won't keep his commandments.

And I have to say that if the fellow you're talking about starts committing adultery because you have told him not to focus on the commandment, you will be sharing the blame for it (James 3:1). It's not 'either.....or,' it's 'both.......and.' If he accepts Romans 8 and Ephesians 5, it should be his delight to keep Exodus 20:14.

I'm wondering if you read my post fully?

I said:

Yes i understand, not committing adultery is a good sign that you love your wife. But someone can neglect loving their wife and not be in adultery whatsoever.

This was not a "token nod" to the seventh Commandment.

Did you read the second part of this statement?

When you have invested your time and efforts blessing and helping another person--you generally keep yourself pure from offending them--Love works no ill towards his neighbor. Our Lord Jesus Said, "Where your treasure is, your heart is also." If you treasure your bride the Way Christ commands us to, then cheating on her is a hideously disgusting thing to even think about. I think you underestimate the Spirit of God working in this situation. Yes, we are still in fallen flesh, but We must Seek the Presence and power of God to live an Over coming Life.

Galatians 5
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.


And i'll close with this...

Yes, i fully understand the implications of James 3, and i can assure you, we had many more words concerning this topic--none that i would like to post in a public forum.

I was not telling him to "Not obey commandments", I was telling him to actively love his wife and by default, he will be fulfilling the 7th command. Don't you get that? When you are actively loving someone you will not be destroying them! Yes, i understand it is a "both, and" not "either, or".

I hope this clears up some of my thoughts.

 

[1689Dave]

The 10 Commandments, the very Law of God as to what he expects for standards of morality, cam to us before Sinai, so why just be OT?

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)