Law/Nt/Legalism/Antinomiam thought/kitchen sink...pt3

[1689Dave]

The wicked will do wicked things; that is a given (Luke 6:43-45 etc.). They will not love God and their neighbours. The Commandments stand for such people as a warning to retrain their wickedness to some degree.

As for the righteous, well there is none of those (Romans 3:10, 23). There are those who are redeemed and born from above. Yet Paul warns such people (1 Corinthians 1:2-9) that if they commit certain named sins, they will not enter the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). 'Do not be deceived.' There is no greater or more wicked deception than to tell new Christians that so long as they love Jesus it doesn't matter what they do. Because it isn't true. 'Do not be deceived.' Loving God means keeping His commandments (John 14:15; 1 John 5:3).

This is true, but Christ abolished the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments) on the cross. We are not under them in any way. But some of them are found in the NT as commentary and instruction. If you Love God and Neighbor, as Christians do, you will live in harmony with the several found in the NT.

1. "We are not under the law" (Rom. 6:14; Gal. 5:18).
2. We are dead to the law (Rom. 7:4).
3. We are delivered from the law (Rom. 7:6).
4. Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4).
5. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ .... we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24, 25).
6. "The law" has been abolished (Eph. 2:15).

 

[Yeshua1]

The point is, that Christ in the heart produces love, whether we heard about the Two Great Commandments or not. And Love fulfills both them and the Ten. Hearing the Ten pinpoints the fountains of lust in the heart for the wicked. But loving God and neighbor shuts them down. In our case, to a trickle. A trickle we attack and censor in the thought realm. I think it is rare for someone walking in the Spirit to sin outwardly. The tongue seems the greatest threat to external sin in this case. But if love rules our thoughts and words, we can overcome even this.

Jesus fulfilled for us the law of God, but he did not abolish the law of God!

 

[Yeshua1]

This is true, but Christ abolished the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments) on the cross. We are not under them in any way. But some of them are found in the NT as commentary and instruction. If you Love God and Neighbor, as Christians do, you will live in harmony with the several found in the NT.

1. "We are not under the law" (Rom. 6:14; Gal. 5:18).
2. We are dead to the law (Rom. 7:4).
3. We are delivered from the law (Rom. 7:6).
4. Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4).
5. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ .... we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24, 25).
6. "The law" has been abolished (Eph. 2:15).

The old Covenant was the relationship between national Israel, between the Jewish race and the true God, so even back under that, none were ever saved by Keeping the law, so if the law was used back then to not save believers, why not be used to do such today though?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

But some of them are found in the NT as commentary and instruction. If you Love God and Neighbor, as Christians do, you will live in harmony with the several found in the NT.

So how does 'living in harmony' differ exactly from 'obeying'? And which of the commandments may I feel relaxed about breaking? And how would that work out in practice?
Can I say, if you obey the Commandments you will live in harmony with the 'Royal law'?

1. "We are not under the law" (Rom. 6:14; Gal. 5:18).

Romans 6:15-18. 'what shall we say then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?' But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.' These are some of the verses that finally persuaded me that I am under the commandments of God. I am not under law as a matter of salvation, but having been saved and having become a willing slave of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is my delight to obey His righteous commands. 'For circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters' (1 Corinthians 7:19).

1. We are dead to the law (Rom. 7:4).
2. We are delivered from the law (Rom. 7:6).

Amen! 'Therefore my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ.' We are dead to the law in respect either of our justification or condemnation. On the one hand we cannot be justified by it because we have failed to obey it perfectly; on the other we cannot be condemned by it because Christ has taken upon Himself the punishment that the law demands and has borne in our stead the curse of Deuteronomy 27:26. But that does not mean that we are not to keep it. In Ephesians 4:25 - 6:4, the last six commandments may all be found, and the fifth one actually spelled out for us. And then notice the next two verses:

'Bondservants [Gk. douloi, 'slaves'], be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ: not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men.'

If we are employees of someone, it's no good declaring that we love our boss and then supposing that we don't have to keep his rules! No, no! If we realy love him then we will take extra pains to keep his commands, otherwise he will say to us, "Why do you call Me, Lord, Lord, and not do the things which I say?' (Luke 6:46).

1. Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4).
2. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ .... we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24, 25).
3. "The law" has been abolished (Eph. 2:15).

'Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.' The commandments are not our righteousness, but they are our rule. 'Not without law toward God, but under law toward Christ.'

The law is no longer our schoolmaster; it has become our trusted friend and guide (Psalm 119:1-8 and passim).

Ephesians 2:15 speaks of 'the law of commandments contained in ordinances' which can only mean the ceremonial laws which separated Jew from Gentile. These are indeed abolished, so that the 'middle wall of separation' may be broken down and Jew and Gentile may be united in Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

So how does 'living in harmony' differ exactly from 'obeying'? And which of the commandments may I feel relaxed about breaking? And how would that work out in practice?
Can I say, if you obey the Commandments you will live in harmony with the 'Royal law'?

First, if God's Love controls our thoughts and actions, we will be in sync with the two great commandments. And this is the backbone of Christian ethics. Paul says martyrdom for any reason other than Love is empty of meaning.


We have portions of the Ten Commandments in the NT. But no mention of the compulsory Sabbath, the sign of the Ten Commandments. And we have stern warnings from the Apostles, that any try to keep the Law removes us from Christ, who abolished the Law. Because trying to keep even one point involves us in keeping all of it, moral, civil, and ceremonial.


The Ten Commandments hung from the two great commandments at a level the unregenerate could understand. But Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount, that if you do the opposite of what the Ten forbade, you will do what the Two Great Commandments set forth as righteousness. That is, the carnal Jew thought he was good for not stealing even though he wanted to. But instead of simply not stealing, we give from a heart of love. Instead of not murdering enemies even though they wanted to, and thinking themselves good because of it, Jesus says Love your enemies. And so, on.


The Ten Commandments are good for instruction and commentary, but the Two Great Commandments present love, not legalistic self-righteousness, as the motive for good works.

 

[1689Dave]

The old Covenant was the relationship between national Israel, between the Jewish race and the true God, so even back under that, none were ever saved by Keeping the law, so if the law was used back then to not save believers, why not be used to do such today though?

God used the TC to control the wicked unbelievers. There are no wicked unbelievers in the body of Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus fulfilled for us the law of God, but he did not abolish the law of God!

Jesus abolished the Ten Commandments (Old Covenant). The two great commandments are eternal.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is true, but Christ abolished the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments) on the cross. We are not under them in any way. But some of them are found in the NT as commentary and instruction. If you Love God and Neighbor, as Christians do, you will live in harmony with the several found in the NT.

1. "We are not under the law" (Rom. 6:14; Gal. 5:18).
2. We are dead to the law (Rom. 7:4).
3. We are delivered from the law (Rom. 7:6).
4. Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4).
5. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ .... we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24, 25).
6. "The law" has been abolished (Eph. 2:15).

1) we are not under law as a means to acquire salvation
2) he is using an analogy. ..you mised it.
3)from its penalty
4) you quoted half the verse....it works better when you try the whole verse
5)because we have been brought to Christ...we the child guardian has done what it needed to.
6) the penalty of breaking it has....the ceremonial types have a fulfillment.

 

[1689Dave]

Iconoclast, Are you saying the Law saved people?

In Paul's analogy, isn't he saying we commit spiritual adultery trying to keep the law as Christians?

And if you keep the law, shouldn't you keep all of it? Including moral, civil, and ceremonial? Which no one can do since the nation to whom it appled no longer exists?

 

[Yeshua1]

God used the TC to control the wicked unbelievers. There are no wicked unbelievers in the body of Christ.

So there are no saved people doing sinful things at times?

 

[Yeshua1]

Iconoclast, Are you saying the Law saved people?

In Paul's analogy, isn't he saying we commit spiritual adultery trying to keep the law as Christians?

And if you keep the law, shouldn't you keep all of it? Including moral, civil, and ceremonial? Which no one can do since the nation to whom it appled no longer exists?

The Law was not given to save any sinner,but as a means to regulate the behavior of saved persons....

 

[1689Dave]

So there are no saved people doing sinful things at times?

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:1–2) (KJV 1900)

Today we make excuses for sinning. But we can walk in the Spirit and live well above outward sin. And concern ourselves with sin in the thought realm. This is where the battle resides. And once we master censoring sinful thoughts we can expect our language to improve also.

“(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:4–5) (KJV 1900)

If Christians need the Ten Commandments to keep from stealing, we might check our hearts against the Two Great Commandments.

If we learn to walk in the Spirit, outward sin is the rare exception, not the rule.

 

[Yeshua1]

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:1–2) (KJV 1900)

Today we make excuses for sinning. But we can walk in the Spirit and live well above outward sin. And concern ourselves with sin in the thought realm. This is where the battle resides. And once we master censoring sinful thoughts we can expect our language to improve also.

“(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:4–5) (KJV 1900)

If Christians need the Ten Commandments to keep from stealing, we might check our hearts against the Two Great Commandments.

If we learn to walk in the Spirit, outward sin is the rare exception, not the rule.

We will never reach the state of having sinless perfection though....

 

[1689Dave]

We will never reach the state of having sinless perfection though....

It's a lifelong battle. But with practice it becomes an acquired skill.

 

[Yeshua1]

It's a lifelong battle. But with practice it becomes an acquired skill.

You have reached sinless perfection state then?

 

[JonShaff]

You have reached sinless perfection state then?

That is a good question, so let me ask you the converse....do you find yourself deliberately sinning with no ability to stop?

 

[Yeshua1]

That is a good question, so let me ask you the converse....do you find yourself deliberately sinning with no ability to stop?

I sin less since the Lord saved me, but still at times do sin!

 

[JonShaff]

I sin less since the Lord saved me, but still at times do sin!

I understand...but do you knowingly willingly set your heart to sin and accomplish it? Do you believe the Resurrection power of Jesus Christ dwells within you? Do you believe it is strong enough to keep you from sinning?

Simple yes and no answers will suffice.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, Are you saying the Law saved people?

In Paul's analogy, isn't he saying we commit spiritual adultery trying to keep the law as Christians?

And if you keep the law, shouldn't you keep all of it? Including moral, civil, and ceremonial? Which no one can do since the nation to whom it appled no longer exists?

The law does not save us directly.
We are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ who was the perfect law keeper, who kept it at all times on behalf of the elect.

All of the ceremonial and judicial laws were expansions of the ten under Moses.....we do not keep the ceremonial or judicial laws that was for ot.Israel.
We do keep the ten under the Lord Jesus Christ.....as well as the expanded definitions under the new covenant.....

So no....col2 is clear we do not keep ot. Feast days,etc.

 

[Yeshua1]

The power of the Holy Spirit will be enough to keep me from knowingly sinning as long as I continue to being infilled by Him, but none of us are able to do that 24/7, as we still have that ole pesky sin nature to deal with!