Dr Kevin Bauder on the "Cadillac" of Degree-The Master of Divinity Part 1

[Rhetorician]

Hello all;

One of your own, Dr. Kevin Bauder; has a very good article on the value, even to the Fundamentalist young preachers amonst us, to have and to hold the Master of Divinity degree. This is lieu of a Bible college or Bible institute "training certificate."

I would like to hear back from my brother Fundamentalists (and IFBers) on; your view of the Master of Divinity degree, Bauder's view of fundamentalist history, and should the "Cadillac" MDiv be shortened?

Read on and have a fun discussion.

https://centralseminary.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Nick20180518.pdf

I will cross post this in the seminary / college thread.

sdg!

rd

 

[TCassidy]

I think the well prepared pastor should have, at a minimum, a secular liberal arts degree followed by a M.Div.

The secular liberal arts BA/BS, contrary to popular IFBx opinion, is not where you "learn the art of being a liberal." It is where you get a broad understanding of many areas of life, requires you to learn to develop good study habits, while giving you an extra four years to grow up.

The M.Div. then begins to provide the tools necessary for a long and fruitful ministry.

My M.Div. was 96 credit hours above my BS. I have seen some programs that shorten that to 90 credit hours but would resist shortening it any farther. Some programs are minimizing or even dropping language requirements but I believe at least 6 hours of Hebrew and 18 hours of Greek should be the minimum requirement.

I have to admit that, at first, I was a bit put off by Dallas Seminary combining the M.Div. and Th.M. into a four year program, but after getting used to it and seeing the results, it may turn our to be a good idea, and might just raise the bar on the "first professional degree" programs at other seminaries.

 

[TCassidy]

About a year ago I addressed the deplorable lack of academically excellent colleges and seminaries in the ranks of IFBs.

------

The first generation (of former Northern Baptist IFBs) was educated in the Northern Baptist schools such as Northern Baptist Seminary and the University of Chicago Divinity School.

But when the fundamentalists separated from the old NBC they separated from the schools they, themselves, had attended.

So the next generation did not have such schools to attend and were forced to seek their educations in local church bible institutes or non-denominational schools such as Moody Bible Institute.

And that forced them into a form of "English Onlyism" based on their lack of understanding of Hebrew and Greek. And when the new translations came along habit reinforced their belief in the KJV as the word of God in English.

It was not until the next generation grew to post-secondary school age that Northwestern was founded by W.B. Riley, and Toronto Baptist Seminary finally grew out of being a local church bible institute. The controversy and split in 1948 had detracted from the school's ability to attract students.

It was not until our generation (Keith and I are old guys) that academically excellent, accredited bible colleges and seminaries became the rule rather than the exception among fundamental baptists with NBC roots.

That would include Central Baptist Seminary under the late R. V. Clearwaters, San Francisco Baptist Seminary under the late G. Archer Wenigar, and others.

Unfortunately, as of today, most, if not all, of the schools started by or associated with the Conservative Baptist Association and the GARBC (Western Baptist College, Cedarville Baptist College, Grand Rapids Baptist College, etc.) have slipped away into an ecumenical parody of fundamentalism displaying the very worst characteristics of the Neo-Evangelicalism of modern American Christendom.
It has taken baptist fundamentalism almost 100 years to recover from the damage done by Modernism and Ecumenicalism.

Even the Southern Baptist Convention, which began its slide into compromise, apostasy, and Modernism as early as 1930 and began a struggle with the conservatives that started around 1960, has now come a long way from those dark days. But it took until 1980 for conservatives to gain control of the Convention, and even longer to purge the seminaries of the Theological Liberalism that had dominated since the 1940s. And that purging continued through 2005.

But the cost has been very high. 1900 congregations left the SBC for the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. So many missionaries were forced to resign due to the requirement to sign the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message in place of the 1963 BF&M that for the first time ever, Independent Baptists now send more missionaries to the foreign field than the SBC.

The cost of Theological Liberalism is just too high.

 

[Rhetorician]

Sorry about the cross posting I will make an effort not to do it again. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

sgd!

rd

 

[rlvaughn]

To begin with, I'll mention that Bauder's article is also available in a different format at Religious Affections Ministries.

I would like to hear back from my brother Fundamentalists (and IFBers) on; your view of the Master of Divinity degree, Bauder's view of fundamentalist history, and should the "Cadillac" MDiv be shortened?

https://centralseminary.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Nick20180518.pdf

I'll not say much about the MDiv degree being shortened, since I don't see copying the secular model of education as the ideal. But, for those who are strong supporters of this model, it seems that the shortening of the program from 90 hours to 72 hours is in effect denying what they advocate. (I suppose they might argue doing this for financial reasons?)

Second, "a man with seminary behind him will be more effective in ministry than the same man without it" is an unprovable assumption. I have, on occasion, witnessed the reverse -- a man, the same man, with an "effective ministry" becoming less effective after a stint in the seminary.

Third, I have seen (somewhat from afar) the types of ministries that "more closely resembled circuses and theaters than New Testament congregations." Definitely poor thinkers with a fairly weak ability to study the text of Scripture for themselves and a relatively sketchy knowledge of the system of faith have led congregations to "pack a pew" and such like with promises of swallowing goldfish or preaching from church roofs in their underwear. (May God deliver us!) But I've also seen non-seminarians who'd never fall into such religious quackery. I've also seen among certain cliques of IFBs where every Tom, Dick, and Houdini claimed to be a "Doctor" (however sketchy that claim may be).

Finally, I think Bauder's history is accurate so far as it goes. In my opinion it somewhat limits the strain of just who are Fundamentalists. My background follows a different trajectory for what he talks about, being Baptists who left the convention both earlier and later than J. Frank Norris (the best known IFB name in our region). Our roots are in denominational trouble in the Baptist General Convention of Texas in the late 1800s. By 1900, a fairly large minority had withdrawn and created the Baptist Missionary Association of Texas. Many people don't think of the BMAT as IFB, and in some ways rightly so, but they were and are clearly ensconced in the of the Fundamentals of the faith. There was co-mingling of the BMAT with other Fundamentalist come-outers, such as Norris and the Bogard Baptists in Arkansas (the combination of Texas and Arkansas churches in the ABA would meet at Norris's FBC Fort Worth in 1935, even though he was not a member of their body). Many, if not most, also took stands that were separatist (against liberal, ecumenical, and denominational churches, e.g) and militant (against card-playing, movies, TVs, dancing, mixed bathing, long hair on men -- but not smoking!). All this to say that I believe our background is solidly fundamental, even though some don't think about it this way (otoh, the Handbook of Denominations places both the Baptist Bible Fellowship International and Baptist Missionary Association of America under "Fundamentalist and Bible Churches"). But one interesting thing in relation to Bauder's topic is this. These Baptists made preparation for an educational institution -- albeit a college rather than a seminary -- even before they organized separately from the BGCT. In 1899 a charter established the Jacksonville Baptist College as a four-year senior college (it's now a junior college, probably because of finances) and it opened in the fall of 1899. The BMAT wasn't formed until 1900 (the college was several years later given to the association). Again, I realize this was a college and not a seminary, but it indicates we may have had a little different background organizationally toward education. (These Baptists wanted all their children to have access to a good education.) While there were churches and preachers who did not believe in the necessity of seminary education for preachers, it seems for the most part (as far as I know) these churches with a generally high view of education didn't fall into some of the same theatrics that other fundamentalists did.

Also, though I'm trying to stop rambling, it is worth noting that churches through the years since 1900 even until recently have departed from the BMAT and ABA organizations and entered the completely unaffiliated fundamentalist ranks. This is true of several of the churches we are closely associated with.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

His focus is on those who have roots in the Northern Baptist(s) (Convention). In reading his other works, I don't think he is limiting who are Fundamentalists. It just that the descriptive can be properly applied to two movements. From what I've read on this board, many here are familiar with the Southern strain but not the Northern.

Finally, I think Bauder's history is accurate so far as it goes. In my opinion, it somewhat limits the strain of just who are Fundamentalists.

 

[rlvaughn]

In regard to the point I was making, I was not distinguishing between Northern & Southern Fundamentalists (he does mention W. B. Riley, north, and J. Frank Norris, south), but the fact that certain groups such as the BMAT are just generally left out of any discussions of fundamentalists, regardless of whether North or South.

 

[Rob_BW]

The .gov may have some responsibility for 72 hour MDivs. DoD reauires the 72 hours for chaplains, I checked a Veterans Affairs chaplain position on usajobs and they required 70 hours.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Having been to a "moderate" (i.e. Liberal) evangelical seminary to acquire the equivalent of an MTS, Asbury Theological Seminary, back when I was a liberal Christian; I must say that the most important thing someone can do is research the positions of the seminary and its professors, especially those teaching classes you will take, to make sure they are within the playing field of the bible as you broadly interpret it. Leaving room for your own error. Of course, if you have "red lines" on doctrine that you will not cross, as I do; Then I sincerely hope you will not go to an institution where nearly everyone crosses them, and they teach you to do the same. Such would be a violation of conscience.

I was forced to leave Asbury when I became a fundamentalist, in that I oppose Modernity in the Church. It was because I realized that I was never going to to agree with seminary on a number of "red line" doctrinal issues, or with my professors for that matter. I was forced to accept halfway to my MDiv degree as the destination when my sojourn there ended, and move onto finding another seminary. I am currently preparing for part time work in order to pay my way without more student loans. Although my goal is not to be an elder, as I am only two years in the faith if liberal Christian is apostate, as I believe it to be. Instead, I want to be a teacher of the Gospel and a Christian writer under elders, who have sound doctrine to me.

The next thing I have found is that 90-96 credit hours seems about right, being halfway there. I even wonder if that is enough schooling to be an elder of any sort. I see seminary as teaching the following critical areas I have observed in an MDiv:

Bible Scholarship and Biblical Languages - The study and teaching of the bible.
Systematic Theology - The formulation and defense of doctrine.
Church History - The story of how we got here in 2000 years.
Practical Theology - How to lead and serve in each of a church's roles.

I do not think church history is given enough justice currently. I mean only got Church History 1 and 2 and it amounted to a hill of beans when I got here to the BB, compared to everyone else.

All of that said, I do not see how classes could be easily eliminated while still teaching these core subject matters. If anything I see the need to require something akin to lifelong learning if you want to be an elder to mature knowledge, wisdom, and understanding in each of these four subject matters.

 

[rlvaughn]

One of your own, Dr. Kevin Bauder; has a very good article on the value, even to the Fundamentalist young preachers amonst us, to have and to hold the Master of Divinity degree. This is lieu of a Bible college or Bible institute "training certificate."

I would like to hear back from my brother Fundamentalists (and IFBers) on; your view of the Master of Divinity degree, Bauder's view of fundamentalist history, and should the "Cadillac" MDiv be shortened?

In light of this thread, I was interested in the comments of another seminarian (SBC) about the M.Div. Quite different from Kevin Bauder's thoughts.

...the MDiv is antiquated. It is...too ridiculously long...loaded with stuff people don't need (a 16-week preaching course...Followed by ANOTHER 16-week "advanced" preaching course? The Ministries of the Local Church? A 3-hour, yes, 3-hour course on personal evangelism? That is the degree of the 1950s. If I'm looking to pastor a church, I'm going for the MATh or MAR, getting my biblical studies, languages, histories, ethics, and moving on...There's at least 24-30 hours that could be trimmed from the MDiv.

 

[Jerome]

My M.Div. was 96 credit hours above my BS. I have seen some programs that shorten that to 90 credit hours but would resist shortening it any farther.

Dallas Seminary combining the M.Div. and Th.M. into a four year program...may turn our to be a good idea

Cedarville's now offering what it calls an 'accelerated path to ministry': BA+MDiv in five years. MDiv portion just 61 hours!

https://www.cedarville.edu/Academic-Programs/Accelerated-BA-MDiv.aspx

Cedarville’s Accelerated B.A.+M.Div. allows you to begin your ministry sooner

Five Years, Two Degrees
You’ll earn both your B.A. in biblical studies and your Master of Divinity, reducing your time in school

 

[SATS PROF]

About a year ago I addressed the deplorable lack of academically excellent colleges and seminaries in the ranks of IFBs.

------

The first generation (of former Northern Baptist IFBs) was educated in the Northern Baptist schools such as Northern Baptist Seminary and the University of Chicago Divinity School.

But when the fundamentalists separated from the old NBC they separated from the schools they, themselves, had attended.

So the next generation did not have such schools to attend and were forced to seek their educations in local church bible institutes or non-denominational schools such as Moody Bible Institute.

And that forced them into a form of "English Onlyism" based on their lack of understanding of Hebrew and Greek. And when the new translations came along habit reinforced their belief in the KJV as the word of God in English.

It was not until the next generation grew to post-secondary school age that Northwestern was founded by W.B. Riley, and Toronto Baptist Seminary finally grew out of being a local church bible institute. The controversy and split in 1948 had detracted from the school's ability to attract students.

It was not until our generation (Keith and I are old guys) that academically excellent, accredited bible colleges and seminaries became the rule rather than the exception among fundamental baptists with NBC roots.

That would include Central Baptist Seminary under the late R. V. Clearwaters, San Francisco Baptist Seminary under the late G. Archer Wenigar, and others.

Unfortunately, as of today, most, if not all, of the schools started by or associated with the Conservative Baptist Association and the GARBC (Western Baptist College, Cedarville Baptist College, Grand Rapids Baptist College, etc.) have slipped away into an ecumenical parody of fundamentalism displaying the very worst characteristics of the Neo-Evangelicalism of modern American Christendom.
It has taken baptist fundamentalism almost 100 years to recover from the damage done by Modernism and Ecumenicalism.

Even the Southern Baptist Convention, which began its slide into compromise, apostasy, and Modernism as early as 1930 and began a struggle with the conservatives that started around 1960, has now come a long way from those dark days. But it took until 1980 for conservatives to gain control of the Convention, and even longer to purge the seminaries of the Theological Liberalism that had dominated since the 1940s. And that purging continued through 2005.

But the cost has been very high. 1900 congregations left the SBC for the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. So many missionaries were forced to resign due to the requirement to sign the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message in place of the 1963 BF&M that for the first time ever, Independent Baptists now send more missionaries to the foreign field than the SBC.

The cost of Theological Liberalism is just too high.

________

KIndly expand on how Corban-formerly Western Baptist--displays "the very worst characteristics of the Neo Evangelicalism... ."
Thanks.