Abraham's Lazarus/Rich Man correspondence = Hades temporary

[Alfred Persson]

24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. (Lk. 16:24-25 ESV)

While alive the Rich Man lived in paradise with plenty to spare yet failed to aid Lazarus at his gate who was in anguish from want and experienced only bad things while alive. To balance the scales, Lazarus now enjoys paradise with plenty to spare but is not permitted to aid the Rich Man in anguish from want in Hades and experiencing only bad things while dead.

It logically follows therefore, as Lazarus suffered until he died, the Rich Man’s torment ends when he “dies”. As the change that occurs during repentance is figuratively like “dying”, the “old man” is “born again” a “new man” (2Cor. 5:17. Rom. 6:4. Jn 3:3. Eph. 4:24), it follows the Rich Man’s torment ends when he repents.

 

[maddog]

I believe this passage more refers to the state of Israel. When Israel had the word of God and the prophets they fared sumptuously every day on Gods teachings. At the same time the gentiles had nothing and they symbolically sat outside the gates of Israel hoping for table scrapes from Israel's spiritual dinning table.

After Jesus and the dispersing of Israel, the gentiles fared sumptuously and were comforted, while the Israelis were tormented throughout the world, hoping for a drop of water to cool their tongue.

So your point holds true in that Israel no longer is being tormented throughout the world wondering like gypsies, and the gentiles are now being overrun with atheism and other false religions.

Very interesting.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe this passage more refers to the state of Israel. When Israel had the word of God and the prophets they fared sumptuously every day on Gods teachings. At the same time the gentiles had nothing and they symbolically sat outside the gates of Israel hoping for table scrapes from Israel's spiritual dinning table.

After Jesus and the dispersing of Israel, the gentiles fared sumptuously and were comforted, while the Israelis were tormented throughout the world, hoping for a drop of water to cool their tongue.

So your point holds true in that Israel no longer is being tormented throughout the world wondering like gypsies, and the gentiles are now being overrun with atheism and other false religions.

Very interesting.

Can't agree. The parable is in response to the Pharisees rejecting Christ's authority, and they would have understood it "literally", as referring to torment in Hades. That is what they believed with a caveat, they thought Abraham sat at the gates of Hades and wouldn't allow any circumcised Jew fall enter therein. Christ contradicted that, obviously.

Christ cited the zeal for money by the unrighteous Steward, to illustrate the "entrepreneurial zeal" believers should have seeking converts to the kingdom. He then say its impossible to do that if one loves money, for then the person is torn between two masters:

13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."
14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.

The Pharisees saw wealth as God's blessing, proof they were serving Him correctly. In context Jesus had been alluding to their traditions for a while, this last was the "last straw" and they were now openly rejecting the Messiah, mocking Him.

So Christ's answer affirms His authority (predicted by Moses and accepted by the people) and points to proof the Pharisees don't serve God, they serve themselves. That is why He cites "God's original intention" there be no divorce (Mt. 19:3-9). The Pharisees intensely debated this issue among themselves and against the Sadducees, who believed as Christ taught. The people would discern Christ was showing their traditions justified divorce for any reason, even a badly cooked meal, but it was so they could go into the arms of another woman. That they served themselves. Then Christ tells the parable about the Rich Man, who lives like a Roman. That also contradicts their teaching riches indicates God's approval. The Parable then, is a warning to the Pharisees not to reject His Messianic authority or they will go to Hades, and Abraham won't save them:

15 And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 "The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.
17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
(Lk. 16:13-18 ESV)

 

[Esther Thompson]

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows how the two classes represented by these men are estimated in the unseen world. The illustration of someone talking to the dead used in the parable is symbolic, not literal.

The rich man was favored with every temporal and spiritual blessing, but he refused to cooperate with God in the use of these blessings. He had given them every spiritual and temporal advantage, and He called upon them to impart these blessings.

Basically this is the same lesson as is in Revelation Chapter 3 with the True Witness to Laodicea. They imagined themselves to be 'rich and increased with goods, and in need of nothing'. But in reality, they were poor and wretched and blind and so forth. The rich man in the parable was really the poor one, in God's eyes, and the beggar was in a better condition spiritually, then the rich man. That was the lesson here.

Christ recognized no virtue in lineage. He taught that spiritual connection supersedes all natural connection. The Jews claimed to have descended from Abraham; but by failing to do the works of Abraham, they proved that they were not his true children. Only those who prove themselves to be spiritually in harmony with Abraham by obeying the voice of God, are reckoned as of true descent. Although the beggar belonged to the class looked upon by men as inferior, Christ recognized him as one whom Abraham would take into the very closest friendship. The man in the parable prayed, “Father Abraham,” he prayed, “have mercy on me.” He did not pray to God, but to Abraham. Thus he showed that he placed Abraham above God, and that he relied on his relationship to Abraham for salvation.

But the conversation between Abraham and the once-rich man is figurative, because the dead are in their graves until the ressurection.

Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows how the two classes represented by these men are estimated in the unseen world. The illustration of someone talking to the dead used in the parable is symbolic, not literal.

The rich man was favored with every temporal and spiritual blessing, but he refused to cooperate with God in the use of these blessings. He had given them every spiritual and temporal advantage, and He called upon them to impart these blessings.

Basically this is the same lesson as is in Revelation Chapter 3 with the True Witness to Laodicea. They imagined themselves to be 'rich and increased with goods, and in need of nothing'. But in reality, they were poor and wretched and blind and so forth. The rich man in the parable was really the poor one, in God's eyes, and the beggar was in a better condition spiritually, then the rich man. That was the lesson here.

Christ recognized no virtue in lineage. He taught that spiritual connection supersedes all natural connection. The Jews claimed to have descended from Abraham; but by failing to do the works of Abraham, they proved that they were not his true children. Only those who prove themselves to be spiritually in harmony with Abraham by obeying the voice of God, are reckoned as of true descent. Although the beggar belonged to the class looked upon by men as inferior, Christ recognized him as one whom Abraham would take into the very closest friendship. The man in the parable prayed, “Father Abraham,” he prayed, “have mercy on me.” He did not pray to God, but to Abraham. Thus he showed that he placed Abraham above God, and that he relied on his relationship to Abraham for salvation.

But the conversation between Abraham and the once-rich man is figurative, because the dead are in their graves until the ressurection.

Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Your interpretation rests upon denying what Christ taught. It presumes God the Son doesn't speak what's on His mind, tell it like it is.

There's another word for teaching souls are conscious in Hades, when they are not. Its called "lying."

To prove your premise Christ did not teach souls are conscious after death, you must go through His other parables and how where He "lied to teach truth." If you can find that phenomena in other parables, then you have proved its possible here.

Lacking that, we only have your denial of what Christ clearly taught. There is a punishment for sin in Hades.

But as I believe I have proved in this thread and on my site, its temporary until one repents.

Lazarus and the Rich Man: Will the Torment End as it did for Lazarus? | End Time News.net