Does a Mdiv matter?

[Pastor Shaun]

I have considered the MDIV myself. However I am an education major right now. I eventually want to go for a DMIN. In Kentucky, I have to get a M.Ed. in order to meet continuing education requirements. I have talked to Liberty and they told me I could couple a M.Ed with a MAR (to get into a DMIN program), would you recommend this for me? or to just fully pursue an MDIV?

 

[michaelbowe]

There are several denominations, i.e. methodist, presbyterian, disciples of Christ, etc that require a Mdiv before ordination. My church, a baptist church, stated they followed this position believing, if a person is called to ministry he or she would wish to provide his or herself with all the proper tools in order to be effective in ministry. I do realize there are instances in which a non-degreed pastor is a very good minister of God's word, but in many cases this is few and far between. For those who state the disciples did not go to seminary, well that is just not biblical, the twelve went through the three year program at Jesus Seminary, with Jesus as the distinguished professor. Paul later went through desert seminary for three years as well. Going to seminary is gaining the knowledge and skills to do what God has called you to do. I believe the Mdiv should be required because in many cases at seminary the prof will play the devils advocate and challenge your beliefs. He or she does this because if you cannot defend what you believe, the what business do you have in a pulpit teaching it. I recommend a Mdiv and I always recommend it from a ATS, or Regionally accredited school. There will be a number of people who do not like this, but been to an ua school and have seen the effects and lacking education it has provided for many of my friends. Like before there are exceptions to this rule, but this like before is few and far between.:jesus:

 

[EdSutton]

There are several denominations, i.e. methodist, presbyterian, disciples of Christ, etc that require a Mdiv before ordination. My church, a baptist church, stated they followed this position believing, if a person is called to ministry he or she would wish to provide his or herself with all the proper tools in order to be effective in ministry. I do realize there are instances in which a non-degreed pastor is a very good minister of God's word, but in many cases this is few and far between. For those who state the disciples did not go to seminary, well that is just not biblical, the twelve went through the three year program at Jesus Seminary, with Jesus as the distinguished professor. Paul later went through desert seminary for three years as well. Going to seminary is gaining the knowledge and skills to do what God has called you to do. I believe the Mdiv should be required because in many cases at seminary the prof will play the devils advocate and challenge your beliefs. He or she does this because if you cannot defend what you believe, the what business do you have in a pulpit teaching it. I recommend a Mdiv and I always recommend it from a ATS, or Regionally accredited school. There will be a number of people who do not like this, but been to an ua school and have seen the effects and lacking education it has provided for many of my friends. Like before there are exceptions to this rule, but this like before is few and far between.:jesus:

Welcome to the Baptist Board.

As an interesting aside. Our church celebrated our 226th year homecoming, this past Sunday. We had our retired former pastor as our homecoming preacher, who may well have preached the last message he will preach, considering he is in poor health, and has great difficulty standing, at all. He has earned a doctorate in the ensuing years, after being our pastor for twelve years, and from which he was called to another church, some 25 years ago. Our current pastor also has an earned doctorate. As one of our de facto church historians (Neither of us sought this, but it kinda' fell into the lap of the church clerk, and me, as the current Moderator, when over the last decade, all the real historians, including both our mothers, have gone on to be with the Lord, and we are kinda' the best of what is left around.), I was giving a short summation of our church history. I remarked that to my knowledge, this was the first time there had ever been two individuals with earned doctorates, on the podium at the same time, in our church's history, and certainly the only time that two that had had the office of Pastor of Forks church had both held doctorates, on the stage at one time. FTR, in no way has our church ever made any particular degree, any requirement, stated or implied, as to our calling a pastor, nor have we given any such guidelines to any Pastor Search Committee, in my lifetime, of beyond the age of when I was 6 years old. We called two consecutive pastors while they were in college, and the third one after that who was a college graduate. He then went on to receive more education, including the doctorate, as I mentioned above, as the one who preached the homecoming message.

Our church's two longest serving pastors, served 70 years between them, and the first, likely had no formal training, and the third definitely did not have any such fiormal education, yet our rural church grew to almost 600 members, during his pastorate, before falling on comparatively lean years afterwards for some years, and has only in the last ten years, reached her all-time high number of members.

This has been a long-winded way of answering "Is an advanced degree advantageous?" Certainly it is, should be, and can be. Is it a necessity? Not at all.

Do any of the names of John Calvin, Martin Luther, James Kennedy, Rick Warren, John Warwick Montgomery, Adrian Rogers, or W. A. Criswell ring any bells? All 7 of them have or had earned doctorates, including more than one, in some instances.

Do any of the names of H. A. Ironside, John Gill, 'Gypsy' Smith, P. H. Mell, Wilbur M. Smith or D. L. Moody or Charles H. Spurgeon ring any bells? None of the 7 had any formal schooling, beyond some elementary grades in a couple of cases.

About that M.Div. or any other degree -

Advantageous? Always!

Necessity? Never.

Ed

 

[michaelbowe]

Ed,
Thankyou for the welcome to Baptist Board. As I stated in my reply, there are always exceptions to the rule of education. I am sure the prior pastors were wonderful men of God, but that is what I stated as the exception to the rule. Should a Mdiv be required, I think so in the age we live in now. Would you require your attorney to have a law degree? If you want to win. Would you require your medical professional to have the appropriate medical degree? If you want to live. Why do we lower the standard when it comes to theological issues? One of the major issues with the Catholic church before the reformation was the education of the ministers. They were inappropriately interpreting the latin and when an actual scholar came in, the minister looked foolish. What I am saying, in the age we live in the minister should be educated. I think Baptist churches need to hold thier upcoming ministers to the standards of education other outside professionals are required to do. Obviously, there are several exceptions to this rule, like Spurgeon, whom started the Pastors' College, so I assume he held a high position on education, but these exceptions are few and far between.

 

[billwald]

>Its helped me in organization and development of sermons and of ministry knowledge

Is this help worth the 2 years, the tuition, and any lost wages?

Could you have gotten this information from another source, books or on line?

 

[trustitl]

In Baptist circles, does a Mdiv REALLY matter? All things being equal, seriously equal, does it matter? I am not so much interested in theory but the practical experience of those pastors or pastoral search committees who can speak from experience.

I have a pretty strong opinion on this but would like to know why you are wondering about this? You appear to question the value of it.

 

[Anton Ramli]

Hi guys how do I create a new thread? Sorry for being annoying I couldn't seem to find a way to do it

 

[Salty]

What I find interesting is a church that requires a Masters degree - for a Bi-Vo position!

 

[Rhetorician]

What I find interesting is a church that requires a Masters degree - for a Bi-Vo position!

Dear Salty,

So I am having a bit of a problem processing your question. Let me say it as it solidifies as a perception of mine and see if I can repeat it back?

Should the people of a small part-time church not need or deserve someone who is trained; in the Biblical Languages, in Bible exegesis, in hermeneutics, in homiletics, in Church History-their own and the totality of how the Church came to be, in missions, in church administration, in their denominational mechanics, in pastoral counseling et al just as much as a larger church who can pay someone to be full-time?

Can you help a brother out here?

rd

 

[JonC]

What I find interesting is a church that requires a Masters degree - for a Bi-Vo position!

I find it interesting that there are many with degrees that are searching for exactly that type of opportunity. A friend graduated a few years ago from DTS (MDiv). He's in his early 40's and has no experience in the ministry as a career. He has been rejected for youth pastor positions because of his age (and he doesn't look like a youth pastor). He has been rejected for pastor positions because he lacks experience for his age. He just accepted a position as a bi-vocational pastor at a small church where he has been filling in.

I'm a little older. I have a Masters degree, but have not worked in the ministry as a career. I am retired military and work as operations manager for a company my best friend owns. I preach and teach (at my church and pulpit supply, as needed). If called upon (and I believed God was calling me) I would have no problem serving in a bi-vocational position or volunteer position.

I would hesitate to consider as pastor a man who has no seminary education at all (for any size church). I would be more hesitant to consider as pastor a man who thought the size of a church or salary a determinant for his calling.

 

[Reformed]

First of all I am not Baptist

What are you (theologically) and why are you attending a Baptist seminary?

 

[rsr]

He hasn't posted in almost eight years, so I doubt you'll get a reply.

 

[Deadworm]

An MDiv from a reputable seminary potentially offers several advantages over a Bible School diploma from Hallelujah College for at least 4 reasons:

(1) In a sense the Bible can never be translated. For many theologically and ethically significant biblical words there is no perfect one-to-one English equivalent. So expertise in linguistic nuance can be very helpful in grasping the true teaching of God's Word. First-rate seminaries require courses in biblical languages that empower pastors to competently assess the missed insights to be gleaned from particular translations.

(2) There is a sense in which a pastor's sermons are only as helpful and instructive as the quality of his personal library. A pastor ideally needs to buy the best in depth commentaries on the most important books of the OT and NT. But the best commentaries are full of technical discussions of Hebrew and Greek nuances and cultural background nd cannot be comfortably used by pastors with little knowledge of the original languages.

(3) Good seminaries have excellent speech and preaching departments that teach helpful courses for students. They also have good field education programs which require students to hone their pastoral skills in churches and community organizations. These programs are respected by most churches looking for pastors.

(4) Good seminaries have sufficient theological diversity among the faculty and student body to open students' eyes to the great diversity and intelligent rationales invoked by divergent Christian thinkers and leaders. Exposure to such an ethos takes students out of the myoptic theological Ghetto in which they were raised and helps them formulate more authentic and thought-out theological positions.

(4) In general, the seminary's reputation and quality can provide a great advantage in pastoral job searches.

I would add that a thorough investigation of the seminary in question is advisable to find the right fit. This investigation should include the books authored by the professors and the mentality of the student body as glimpsed by a personal visit to the campus.

 

[tyndale1946]

Well since this is an old post and I am an Old School Baptist I'll post this... Have a preacher friend of mine that has been preaching over 60 years and has a Phd... No D.D. just a Phd!... Now before you all say well that's ok... Let me tell you a little about him... He's a Texas preacher and started preaching at the age of 16... Felt the calling of the Lord and studied and studied and studied... Just his Bible and the Lord... He exercised for awhile and then they ordained him... Preaching now like I said, over 60 years... To hear him tell it, he is just a poor dirt farmer the Lord called to preach... Never went to seminary, bible college or any of them fancy religious houses of learning... But you said he had a Phd?... I did!... But you have to understand what it stands for?... His Phd is Post Hole Digger!... And he really knows his Bible, being just a poor dirt farmer the Lord called to preach... Brother Glen

 

[Salty]

Dear Salty,

So I am having a bit of a problem processing your question. Let me say it as it solidifies as a perception of mine and see if I can repeat it back?

Should the people of a small part-time church not need or deserve someone who is trained; in the Biblical Languages, in Bible exegesis, in hermeneutics, in homiletics, in Church History-their own and the totality of how the Church came to be, in missions, in church administration, in their denominational mechanics, in pastoral counseling et al just as much as a larger church who can pay someone to be full-time ...

I am not saying that a small church doesn't deserve someone with a masters.
But for a small church to say that you must have a Masters, but we can only pay you
for say 16 hours a week - yet expect you to work 40 hours a week - at a ridiculous low pay.

The Bible does teach us that a man is worthy of his hire.

If a man is willing to serve at such a low pay - that fine - could be he is retired or semi-retired.

Bottom line - a church should not be upset if they cannot find someone with high standards and low compensation.

 

[Deadworm]

Here is the easiest solution to a shortage of qualified pastors for small churches. Experienced retired pastors and theology professors should make themselves available via e-mail or a special forum to advise, consult with, and provide sermon material for inexperienced or inadequately trained pastors, regardless of denominational affiliation. Here are some of the specific ways a newbie's ministry might be enhanced in this way:

(1) Part-time pastors with a 2nd job could be provided with strategies for planning services and sermons a whole year in advance, including compatible praise choruses and hymns. Of course, one must be open to guidance from the Holy Spirit. So the preplanned sermon schedule could be modified at the Spirit's prompting or to react to events in the life of the church and the world.

(2) The retired advisor might consult his vast library to provide the part-time pastor with insights into the nuances of the Hebrew or Greek in the text for the sermon and relevant background information about the issues in that NT community and the cutture in which it is immersed. Through such consultation, the academically underqualified pastor can gradually gain much of the equivalent of a good seminary education.

(3) The retired advisor could help the unqualified pastor build an efficient helpful personal library designed to equip him with the exegetical and spiritual knowledge needed to make sermon preoaraton easier.

 

[Rhetorician]

Here is the easiest solution to a shortage of qualified pastors for small churches. Experienced retired pastors and theology professors should make themselves available via e-mail or a special forum to advise, consult with, and provide sermon material for inexperienced or inadequately trained pastors, regardless of denominational affiliation. Here are some of the specific ways a newbie's ministry might be enhanced in this way:

(1) Part-time pastors with a 2nd job could be provided with strategies for planning services and sermons a whole year in advance, including compatible praise choruses and hymns. Of course, one must be open to guidance from the Holy Spirit. So the preplanned sermon schedule could be modified at the Spirit's prompting or to react to events in the life of the church and the world.

(2) The retired advisor might consult his vast library to provide the part-time pastor with insights into the nuances of the Hebrew or Greek in the text for the sermon and relevant background information about the issues in that NT community and the cutture in which it is immersed. Through such consultation, the academically underqualified pastor can gradually gain much of the equivalent of a good seminary education.

(3) The retired advisor could help the unqualified pastor build an efficient helpful personal library designed to equip him with the exegetical and spiritual knowledge needed to make sermon preoaraton easier.

I am for that, where do I sign up.

rd

 

[Deadworm]

I am for that, where do I sign up.

rd

As a retired pastor and ex-Theology professor, I am looking for more ways to serve God. If you or anyone wanted free help with sermon or ministry preparatinn, I'd be delighted to help out via e-maii and would even be willing to provide my personal phone number for additional support. I would only ask you to judge me by how helpful the material I provide is to your ministry.

Your question reminds me of my great frustration in trying to start a singles ministry in our town (pop. 5,000). As a pastor, I became aware of several nice single women who felt that their only dating option was bar patrons. Of course, they often paired up with "the wrong guy" in this way. I made it known that I was willing to start an interdenomionational singles group to address this problem. I made it clear that I would rather not lead such a group, but was willing to do so, if that is what it took to get one started. I planned to advertise this forming group in our local paper, but would need lists of the names of single people in local churches to form the foundation for this ministry. This latter request thwarted my dream. Other pastors saw this as my method of sheep stealing and refused to cooperate. I protested in vain that I'd prefer not to lead such a group and would be delighted to step aside and let other pastors or an interchurch group of leaders run said group. I just wanted lost singles to have some such group available to local secular singles! None of our churches have such a group already. Despite this suggestion, our interchurch divisiveness prevented any form of interchurch singles ministry from being organized.

I feel the same way about my pastoral support idea--e-mail sharing or a new website devoted to this purpose. I don't need to lead or even participate in such a venture, but I'm willing to participate if that's what it takes to get such a ministry started. I mean, such a ministry, as I envisage it, would cost nothing but time commitment to anyone!

 

[Salty]

Pastoral Search Report
We do not have a happy report to give. We’ve not been able to find a suitable candidate for this church, though we have one promising prospect still. We do appreciate all the suggestions from the church members, and we’ve followed up each one with interviews or calling at least three references. The following is our confidential report on the present candidates.

• Adam: Good man but problems with his wife. Also one reference told of how his wife and he enjoy walking nude in the woods.
• Noah: Former pastorate of 120 years with no converts. Prone to unrealistic building projects.
  
• Abraham: Though the references reported wife-swapping, the facts seem to show he never slept with another man’s wife, but did offer to share his own wife with another man.
• Joseph: A big thinker, but a braggart, believes in dream-interpreting, and has a prison record.
• Moses: A modest and meek man, but poor communicator, even stuttering at times. Sometimes blows his stack and acts rashly. Some say he left an earlier church over a murder charge.
• David: The most promising leader of all until we discovered the affair he had with his neighbor’s wife.
  
• Solomon: Great preacher but our parsonage would never hold all those wives.
• Elijah: Prone to depression-collapses under pressure.
• Elisha: Reported to have lived with a single widow while at his former church.
• Hosea: A tender and loving pastor but our people could never handle his wife’s occupation.
  
• Deborah: Female.
• Jeremiah: Emotionally unstable, alarmist, negative, always lamenting things, and reported to have taken a long trip to bury his underwear on the bank of foreign river.
• Isaiah: On the fringe? Claims to have seen angels in church. Has trouble with his language.
• Jonah: Refused God’s call into ministry until he was forced to obey by getting swallowed up by a great fish. He told us the fish later spit him out on the shore near here. We hung up.
  
• Amos: Too backward and unpolished. With some seminary training he might have promise, but has a hang-up against wealthy people. Might fit in better in a poor congregation.
• John: Says he is a Baptist, but definitely doesn’t dress like one. Has slept in the outdoors for months on end, has a weird diet, and provokes denominational leaders.
• Peter: Too blue collar. Has a bad temper—even has been known to curse. Had a big run-in with Paul in Antioch. Aggressive, but a loose cannon.
  
• Paul: Powerful CEO type leader and fascinating preacher. However, short on tact, unforgiving with younger ministers, harsh and has been known to preach all night.
• Timothy: Too young.
• Jesus: Has had popular times, but once when his church grew to 5000 he managed to offend them all and this church dwindled down to twelve people. Seldom stays in one place very long. And, of course, he’s single.
• Judas: His references are solid. A steady plodder. Conservative. Good connections. Knows how to handle money. We’re inviting him to preach this Sunday. Possibilities here.