Which churches are growing?

[Salty]

Found this on a closed thread - but sounds interesting to continue:

WHY BECOME CATHOLIC?

I am a retired United Methodist, pastor, but for 12 years prior to my pastoral career was a theology professor at a Catholic university. Though not Catholic in doctrine, I will play devll's advocate and seek to provide greater fairness to the treatment of this topic and hopefully attract some Catholic members to this site.

Our local Catholic church is thriving and even drawing members away from local evangelical churches. Why?
(1) They love the regularity, reverence, elegance, and richness of the Catholic Mass. By contrast, they find the diversity of evangelical worship services distracting, comparatively frivolous, and less reverent. They prefer Catholic hymnody to what they perceive as the repetitive and shallow evangelical praise choruses.

(2) They love the spiritual richness and depth of the best of 2000 years of Catholic spirituality. My evangelical cousin Lloyd's marriage was failing. Desperately he explored remedial options, but the only option that saved his marriage was a Catholic spiritual director. This director was both a trained counselor and an expert in the insights of ancient monasticism and the Desert Fathers and this combination of areas of expertise gave him the wisdom to solve the problems in Lloyd's marriage, when all else failed. Catholic retreat centers can be a uniquely powerful source of spiritual renewal.

(3) They appreciate unique Catholic doctrines that were absent from their evangelical heritage (e. g. Catholic mysticism, prayer to Mary and the Saints, Purgatory). If readers would appreciate a biblical defense of this, please advise..

So are Evangelical churches doing enough to share the good news.

 

[Yeshua1]

Found this on a closed thread - but sounds interesting to continue:

WHY BECOME CATHOLIC?

I am a retired United Methodist, pastor, but for 12 years prior to my pastoral career was a theology professor at a Catholic university. Though not Catholic in doctrine, I will play devll's advocate and seek to provide greater fairness to the treatment of this topic and hopefully attract some Catholic members to this site.

Our local Catholic church is thriving and even drawing members away from local evangelical churches. Why?
(1) They love the regularity, reverence, elegance, and richness of the Catholic Mass. By contrast, they find the diversity of evangelical worship services distracting, comparatively frivolous, and less reverent. They prefer Catholic hymnody to what they perceive as the repetitive and shallow evangelical praise choruses.

(2) They love the spiritual richness and depth of the best of 2000 years of Catholic spirituality. My evangelical cousin Lloyd's marriage was failing. Desperately he explored remedial options, but the only option that saved his marriage was a Catholic spiritual director. This director was both a trained counselor and an expert in the insights of ancient monasticism and the Desert Fathers and this combination of areas of expertise gave him the wisdom to solve the problems in Lloyd's marriage, when all else failed. Catholic retreat centers can be a uniquely powerful source of spiritual renewal.

(3) They appreciate unique Catholic doctrines that were absent from their evangelical heritage (e. g. Catholic mysticism, prayer to Mary and the Saints, Purgatory). If readers would appreciate a biblical defense of this, please advise..

So are Evangelical churches doing enough to share the good news.

Could just as well be titles Why Not become a charismatic?
As those churches are rapidly growing, as those there claim to be really worshiping God in the Spirit, getting fresh revealtion , and also learn how to live overcoming lives, by faith getting physical health and financial wealth!

Paul addressed this, when he stating that people will want to grow where they can feel good, and not asked what can they do for God, but what can god do for them...

 

[utilyan]

"Which churches are growing?"

The ones under everyone's nose:
Google, Youtube, and Twitter.

 

[Deadworm]

Yes, unlike many evangelical denominations, Roman Catholicism and the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement are growing. I have addressed the growth of our local Catholic church. So now I'll address the phenomenal growth of Pentecostalism. In my next planned thread I'll focus on the spiritual reasons for their growth, but here I'll simply draw inferences from personal experience.

I was raised in a Canadian Pentecostal church for the first 21 years of my life. In my late teens, my mind was filled with doubts about the reliability and inspiration of Scripture and the genuineness of the ecstatic manifestations in Pentecostalism. I once asked an elder why the interpretions of messages in tongues during worship weren't recorded for later reflection. His reply: "O you're taking these interpretations too seriously. They are not the Bible and don't need to be remembered." My response? "Either they're inspired by the Risen Lord or they're not!" If they are, then they deserve the highest respect and preservation in recordings for further reflection. And if they aren't, then they should be banned as of the flesh!" I concluded that even many Pentecostal leaders don't believe that Jesus is speaking through these interpretations of tongues.

When tongues and interpretation interrupted our Communion services, I either froze as if confronted by a cobra or was moved to weeping with joy. Unfortunately, this positive reaction was rare. I concluded and still think that 90% of Pentecostal manifestations are of the flesh. I now realize that the Lord had given me the gift of discernment in these my youthful years.

As I driflted into agnosticism, I decided to give God another chance to make Himself real to me. I will describe what happened in detail in a separate thread on speaking in tongues. Let me just say this here: my experience of speaking in tongues one night at a camp meeting was so powerful, so electrifying, so joyful, so intimate in its connection with God that it was the highlight of my life and the source of inspiration for me to become first a theology professor and than a pastor. More sobering is my realization that if the Spirit had not given me that particular experience on that night, I would likely not even be a Christian today. The 5% of charismatic manifestations that are real are so precious and so life-changing that they are the unrecognized cause of the phenomenal growth of the movement. The tame subjective experiences that pass for moves of the Spirit in other evangelical denominations pale by comparison.

 

[Reynolds]

Found this on a closed thread - but sounds interesting to continue:

WHY BECOME CATHOLIC?

I am a retired United Methodist, pastor, but for 12 years prior to my pastoral career was a theology professor at a Catholic university. Though not Catholic in doctrine, I will play devll's advocate and seek to provide greater fairness to the treatment of this topic and hopefully attract some Catholic members to this site.

Our local Catholic church is thriving and even drawing members away from local evangelical churches. Why?
(1) They love the regularity, reverence, elegance, and richness of the Catholic Mass. By contrast, they find the diversity of evangelical worship services distracting, comparatively frivolous, and less reverent. They prefer Catholic hymnody to what they perceive as the repetitive and shallow evangelical praise choruses.

(2) They love the spiritual richness and depth of the best of 2000 years of Catholic spirituality. My evangelical cousin Lloyd's marriage was failing. Desperately he explored remedial options, but the only option that saved his marriage was a Catholic spiritual director. This director was both a trained counselor and an expert in the insights of ancient monasticism and the Desert Fathers and this combination of areas of expertise gave him the wisdom to solve the problems in Lloyd's marriage, when all else failed. Catholic retreat centers can be a uniquely powerful source of spiritual renewal.

(3) They appreciate unique Catholic doctrines that were absent from their evangelical heritage (e. g. Catholic mysticism, prayer to Mary and the Saints, Purgatory). If readers would appreciate a biblical defense of this, please advise..

So are Evangelical churches doing enough to share the good news.

The goats find the entertainment at the Catholic church more to their liking than the entertainment at the protestant church.
I found out all I needed to know about Catholic church and their social club atmosphere one Saturday morning when I answered a "person requesting to speak to an officer" call. I was greeted by a woman identifying herself as the business administrator of the church. She wanted to file a report because the people who rented the fellowship hall the previous night had alcohol at the party. I asked "whats the problem with that?
Y'all drink here all the time." She replied "You don't understand. We have a license to pour alcohol. It was in their rental agreement that all alcohol had to be purchased from us and poured by our bartenders. We need a report because we are going to recover our loses by civil process."
A church possessing the same alcohol license the bars and taverns have.

 

[Deadworm]

When Jesus changed the water into wine, He waited until they had drunk so much that they couldn't tell the difference between the best and worst wine. The irony was that Jesus' miraculously produced alcoholic wine was superior to the original wine. Jesus had a reputation as "a winebibber and a glutton" because part of His way of getting off His high horse and connecting with tax collectors, prostitutes, and other disreputable sinners was to party with them! Reynolds, you might consider imitating Jesus by getting off your high horse like He did! The Bible teaches moderation, not abstinence from alcohol.

But thanks for posting because your quibble illustrates part of the reason why Catholic churches are growing , while many evangelical churches are floundering. People are attracted to the practical down-to-earth spirituality of Catholicism.

 

[Reynolds]

When Jesus changed the water into wine, He waited until they had drunk so much that they couldn't tell the difference between the best and worst wine. The irony was that Jesus' miraculously produced alcoholic wine was superior to the original wine. Jesus had a reputation as "a winebibber and a glutton" because part of His way of getting off His high horse and connecting with tax collectors, prostitutes, and other disreputable sinners was to party with them! Reynolds, you might consider imitating Jesus by getting off your high horse like He did! The Bible teaches moderation, not abstinence from alcohol.

But thanks for posting because your quibble illustrates part of the reason why Catholic churches are growing , while many evangelical churches are floundering. People are attracted to the practical down-to-earth spirituality of Catholicism.

You see no problem with a church selling alcohol for profit? I am not talking about drinking some wine at church fellowships, no license is required for that. I am talking about purchasing a very expensive license that allows you to SELL alcohol for profit. Having seen some of the parties at that facility, I can guarantee you there was quite a bit of intoxication that occurred.

 

[Deadworm]

I don't know what happens at their socials. But you are focusing on an atypical case to slander the whole Catholic church and you would be indignant if I used the Westside Baptist church to stereotype your church. You need to learn not to judge the whole by its worst exemplars. There is nothing worse than Catholicism at its worst. But there is nothing more spiritual than Catholicism at its best. I prefer to focus on the positive, so I can learn from that. btw, I have successfully sued a Catholic university and won, but that in no way taints my admiration for the reasons for their widespread appeal and growth.

 

[Reynolds]

I don't know what happens at their socials. But you are focusing on an atypical case to slander the whole Catholic church and you would be indignant if I used the Westside Baptist church to stereotype your church. You need to learn not to judge the whole by its worst exemplars. There is nothing worse than Catholicism at its worst. But there is nothing more spiritual than Catholicism at its best. I prefer to focus on the positive, so I can learn from that. btw, I have successfully sued a Catholic university and won, but that in no way taints my admiration for the reasons for their widespread appeal and growth.

Huge difference is that Westside Baptist is not controlled by a denomination. They are a church calling themselves Baptist(whoever you are talking about). The Westside I know is a small country church of about 50 people a few miles down the road from my house. The Catholic church has central control and bears direct responsibility for the actions of its individual churches..

 

[Deadworm]

First, you are ignoring the principle of judging other Christian traditions by their best exemplars.
Second, the specific case you cite sounds innocuous to me, but in any case is an aberration not cotrolled by standard Catholic policy.
Third, Catholic biblical scholarship is far superior and more respected than its Baptist counterpart. This can be seen by attending countless lectures at the annual meetings of the Society of Biblical Literature, the largest and most respected biblical convention in the world. For example, Jesuit Raymond Brown's massive magisterial 2-volume Commentary on John, though decades old, remains a gold standard of Gospel commentaries. Such Catholic biblical expertise is on display in their church programs and is one of the attractants to honest seekers looking for a church where they can gain deeper insight into Scripture.

 

[Reynolds]

First, you are ignoring the principle of judging other Christian traditions by their best exemplars.
Second, the specific case you cite sounds innocuous to me, but in any case is an aberration not cotrolled by standard Catholic policy.
Third, Catholic biblical scholarship is far superior and more respected than its Baptist counterpart. This can be seen by attending countless lectures at the annual meetings of the Society of Biblical Literature, the largest and most respected biblical convention in the world. For example, Jesuit Raymond Brown's massive magisterial 2-volume Commentary on John, though decades old, remains a gold standard of Gospel commentaries. Such Catholic biblical expertise is on display in their church programs and is one of the attractants to honest seekers looking for a church where they can gain deeper insight into Scripture.

Catholicism in all its scholarliness came up with heresies such as purgatory, selling indulgences, praying to Mary, transubstantiatin, etc.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Catholicism in all its scholarliness came up with heresies such as purgatory, selling indulgences, praying to Mary, transubstantiatin, etc.

Yet they have a very optimistic view of human nature! Contrast them to the Calvinist for example—these people at their very heart believe that humans are endlessly depraved (and there is some truth to that) but Catholics don’t start there... they start with Genesis 1:10. They get to original sin afterwards.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My wife is a recovering alcoholic and was born and raised in Dutch Reformed and Presbyterian churches, essentially Reformed theology communities.

She was arrested for DWI and ordered by the court to attend AA meetings. She attended several but the one she liked was an “Open Meeting” held at aBenedictine monastery several miles from my home. We went each week and found their meetings to being a cut above... a gathering of the broken. They then asked her to attend a Matt Talbot Retreat which she did. In her own words it was spiritual, it was meditative, it was prayerful and it was life changing. I am very grateful to the Catholics who through their very rich and healthy way of addressing people’s problems (with Christ at the center) gave me back my wife.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Found this on a closed thread - but sounds interesting to continue:

WHY BECOME CATHOLIC?

I am a retired United Methodist, pastor, but for 12 years prior to my pastoral career was a theology professor at a Catholic university. Though not Catholic in doctrine, I will play devll's advocate and seek to provide greater fairness to the treatment of this topic and hopefully attract some Catholic members to this site.

Our local Catholic church is thriving and even drawing members away from local evangelical churches. Why?
(1) They love the regularity, reverence, elegance, and richness of the Catholic Mass. By contrast, they find the diversity of evangelical worship services distracting, comparatively frivolous, and less reverent. They prefer Catholic hymnody to what they perceive as the repetitive and shallow evangelical praise choruses.

(2) They love the spiritual richness and depth of the best of 2000 years of Catholic spirituality. My evangelical cousin Lloyd's marriage was failing. Desperately he explored remedial options, but the only option that saved his marriage was a Catholic spiritual director. This director was both a trained counselor and an expert in the insights of ancient monasticism and the Desert Fathers and this combination of areas of expertise gave him the wisdom to solve the problems in Lloyd's marriage, when all else failed. Catholic retreat centers can be a uniquely powerful source of spiritual renewal.

(3) They appreciate unique Catholic doctrines that were absent from their evangelical heritage (e. g. Catholic mysticism, prayer to Mary and the Saints, Purgatory). If readers would appreciate a biblical defense of this, please advise..

So are Evangelical churches doing enough to share the good news.

What are evangelicals doing at all to share the good news?

 

[Deadworm]

The Pentecostal church in which I was raised always had 2 Sunday services, a morning service for Christians and an evening evangelistic service. The evening service featured a hard-hitting sermon against sin, pointing the cross as the antidote, and ended with a high pressure altar call. Yet we all noticed an intriguing pattern when altar calls eventually were also given after the morning service for Christians. More seekers came to Christ in response to the morning message which stressed the positive benefits of the spiritual life than did for the sin-oriented evening sermons! To me, this pattern reinforces your point.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Pentecostal church in which I was raised always had 2 Sunday services, a morning service for Christians and an evening evangelistic service. The evening service featured a hard-hitting sermon against sin, pointing the cross as the antidote, and ended with a high pressure altar call. Yet we all noticed an intriguing pattern when altar calls eventually were also given after the morning service for Christians. More seekers came to Christ in response to the morning message which stressed the positive benefits of the spiritual life than did for the sin-oriented evening sermons! To me, this pattern reinforces your point.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I live in New Jersey where 38-40% of the church going population is Catholic. The Church I grew up in is .3miles away with 3 masses on Sunday. I just checked and there are 16 RC Churches w/i 10 miles of here. Contrast that with Baptists who only have one in 10 miles with the next being 23 miles ( doesn’t make for a great community does it)

 

[Deadworm]

Catholicism in all its scholarliness came up with heresies such as purgatory,,... praying to Mary,.. etc.

You don't even know the biblical texts a Catholic might invoke to justify their belief in both purgatory and prayer to Mary and the saints, do you?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You see no problem with a church selling alcohol for profit? I am not talking about drinking some wine at church fellowships, no license is required for that. I am talking about purchasing a very expensive license that allows you to SELL alcohol for profit. Having seen some of the parties at that facility, I can guarantee you there was quite a bit of intoxication that occurred.

Where they putting it through a Nights of Columbus hall?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just this morning I saw some tragic news about a New Jersey family (a father with his 4 daughters) returning from vacation and got into a tragic traffic accident killing them all. My wife is going through her own health issues. So as I made a morning breakfast for my own family I thought, God be with the wife who has to deal with this... I don’t know how she will be able to cope with it. This was early Sunday and the reporter was at the families Roman Catholic Church as was the remaining family, I’m sure they are receiving comfort.

Then I recalled my mother who coped with her own family tragedies and how she dealt with it. Mom’s very Catholic answer was that we all have our own crosses to bare. She would also mention that the only life promised to any of us in this world is the “mystery of faith” which is life and death all mixed together... the Catholics call it, ‘The Paschal Mystery’ and this morning, before anyone was up I found myself saying it ...
Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will always come again.