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The Biblical Basis for some Catholic Distinctives

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D

Deadworm

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In this thread I will discuss the biblical basis for Catholic distinctives such as the Catholic doctrine of salvation, Purgatory, praying to the saints (including Mary), and Transubstantiation.

(1) Salvation: Typically evangelicals accuse Catholics of teaching a false works-based doctrine of salvation. In so doing, they unconsciously endorse Luther's dismissal of James as "an epistle of straw." Luther was appalled by James's declaration, "Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar (2:21)?" To Luther, this clashes with Paul's statement that evangelicals prefer to stress: "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God--not the result of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9)." Catholics would draw the attention of evangelicals to the clarification of Abraham's salvation by works in James 2:22: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works." Ultimately Catholics view James and Paul as using language in different ways to express the same truth and want evangelicals to stress the whole counsel of God, including James.

From a Catholic perspective, many evangelicals fail to get 2 points:
(1) Both the Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") words translated "faith" also mean "faithfulness." So works in the sense of a new way of being are already built into the biblical concept of faith. That's why James asks this rhetorical question which assumes the obvious answer, "Of course not!"

"What good is it, brethren, if a man says he has faith but not works? Can faith save him (2:14)?"

James precludes the view that in itself belief and trust in Jesus as your Savior qualifies as true faith: "Show me your faith apart from works and I by my works will show you my faith (2:18)."

(2) From a Catholic perspective, evangelicals often fail to grasp the old philosophical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions. In other words, as part of the new Christian way of being, works are a necessary condition for salvation, but not a sufficient condition; faith remains God's gift and salvation remains a matter of grace (= unmerited favor), and so, in that sense good works don't earn salvation. These insights help explain Paul's instruction, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13)." Only God knows whether we "work out" our salvation through an adequate expression of faith/ faithfulness and so, this element of uncertainty warrants some "fear and trembling." On the other hand, since God loves us and Jesus died for us and since faith and salvation are God's work within us, we can have assurance that the loving God of grace will see us through to victory.

Catholics would remind evangelicals that the "goats" in Matthew 25:31-46 are not saved by simple belief and trust. The "goats" are damned for their failure to discern Christ's presence in the poor and needy:
"I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you gave me no clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me...Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to the least of these, you did not do it to me (25:42-45)."

I will save my discussion of the relevance of the Eucharist here for my post on Transubstantiation.

"
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

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Catholics would remind evangelicals that the "goats" in Matthew 25:31-46 are not saved by simple belief and trust. The "goats" are damned for their failure to discern Christ's presence in the poor and needy:
"I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you gave me no clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me...Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to the least of these, you did not do it to me (25:42-45).
Click to expand...

Here I am in total agreement!
 
D

Deadworm

Member
(2) THE BIBLICAL BASIS OF PURGATORY

The word "Purgatory" (Latin: "purgatorium") initially appears around 1160 AD), but this concept of postmortem purification has roots in ancient Judaism and the NT. The following 4 texts form a major part of the background for the doctrine of Purgatory:

(1) Catholics refer to 2 Maccabees in their OT for the initial principle that justifies the concept of Purgatory. It was discovered that Jewish freedom fighters had committed idolatry and it was thought that their deaths in battle were a punishment for this sin. The righteous Jewish soldiers believed in praying for the dead. So they sent a sin offering to the Jerusalem Temple and prayed for these dead soldiers "that the sin that had been committed would be wholly blotted out. 12:42, 44)." In this way, they attest the belief that prayer and godly ritual can change the status of dead sinners in the eyes of God.
Now modern Christians don't embrace the Apocrypha as Scripture. But Paul applies this Maccabean principle to the Corinthian practice of proxy baptism for the unrighteous dead. Paul believes that soul retrievals from an interim state (akin to Purgatory) through proxy baptism can be part of the process by which God will ultimately "be all in all:"

"...so that God may be all in all. Otherwise, what will they do who receive baptism in behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised all all, why are they baptized on their behalf (1 Cor 15:28-29)?"
1 Cor 3:15

(2) Paul accepts the traditional Jewish view that locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven (2 Cor 12:2-3). This view raises the question of the nature of the first 2 Heavens. Paradise is the desirable place for the deceased righteous to reside (see e. g. Luke 23:42-43). But in the relevant intertestamental Jewish texts that are the background of this model of the Heavens, the 2nd Heaven is described as a place of suffering akin to Purgatory.

(3) Perhaps the best biblical precedent for the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory emerges from Paul's discussion of the fate of weak Christians who build their lives improperly on the foundation that is Christ. Paul warns that their works will not withstand close divine scrutiny: "If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire (1 Cor 3:15)." In early rabbinic literature, the expression "saved so as by fire" is applied to Jews of mediocre spirituality who must spend a year in Gehenna before being promoted to Paradise. Gehenna here seems to be a model for Purgatory.

(4) In a parable Jesus uses the image of a debtor's prison as an allusion to Gehenna: "In anger his Lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34)." The implication is that the debt can theoretically be paid to secure release.
 
Y

Yeshua1

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Deadworm said:
In this thread I will discuss the biblical basis for Catholic distinctives such as the Catholic doctrine of salvation, Purgatory, praying to the saints (including Mary), and Transubstantiation.

(1) Salvation: Typically evangelicals accuse Catholics of teaching a false works-based doctrine of salvation. In so doing, they unconsciously endorse Luther's dismissal of James as "an epistle of straw." Luther was appalled by James's declaration, "Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar (2:21)?" To Luther, this clashes with Paul's statement that evangelicals prefer to stress: "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God--not the result of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9)." Catholics would draw the attention of evangelicals to the clarification of Abraham's salvation by works in James 2:22: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works." Ultimately Catholics view James and Paul as using language in different ways to express the same truth and want evangelicals to stress the whole counsel of God, including James.

From a Catholic perspective, many evangelicals fail to get 2 points:
(1) Both the Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") words translated "faith" also mean "faithfulness." So works in the sense of a new way of being are already built into the biblical concept of faith. That's why James asks this rhetorical question which assumes the obvious answer, "Of course not!"

"What good is it, brethren, if a man says he has faith but not works? Can faith save him (2:14)?"

James precludes the view that in itself belief and trust in Jesus as your Savior qualifies as true faith: "Show me your faith apart from works and I by my works will show you my faith (2:18)."

(2) From a Catholic perspective, evangelicals often fail to grasp the old philosophical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions. In other words, as part of the new Christian way of being, works are a necessary condition for salvation, but not a sufficient condition; faith remains God's gift and salvation remains a matter of grace (= unmerited favor), and so, in that sense good works don't earn salvation. These insights help explain Paul's instruction, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13)." Only God knows whether we "work out" our salvation through an adequate expression of faith/ faithfulness and so, this element of uncertainty warrants some "fear and trembling." On the other hand, since God loves us and Jesus died for us and since faith and salvation are God's work within us, we can have assurance that the loving God of grace will see us through to victory.

Catholics would remind evangelicals that the "goats" in Matthew 25:31-46 are not saved by simple belief and trust. The "goats" are damned for their failure to discern Christ's presence in the poor and needy:
"I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you gave me no clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me...Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to the least of these, you did not do it to me (25:42-45)."

I will save my discussion of the relevance of the Eucharist here for my post on Transubstantiation.

"
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Good works, as per the scriptures, would accompany salvation, would be the fruit of salvation, but are NOT in any fashion part/basis/cause of the salvation!
Ephesians 2:8-10 shows to us that we are saved by Grace alone/faith alone, but those saved will now evidence it by fruit of good works..
Rome misunderstands what James meant by justification, as paul related that towards us and God, James to between us and other humans!
 
O

One Baptism

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O

One Baptism

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Deadworm said:
In this thread I will discuss the biblical basis for Catholic distinctives ...
Click to expand...
The ARK of the Covenant HAS BEEN FOUND since AD 1844! The Sabbath Commandment [Ex. 20:8-11] is seen

https://www.christianityboard.com/t...sabbath-commandment-ex-20-8-11-is-seen.26131/

That discusses the real Ark.

The following discusses the counterfeit 'ark'

Theotokos? or TheoNOTokos! - Sedi Sapientiae? or Sedi SERPENTiae! - Roman Raiders of the Ark

https://www.baptistboard.com/thread...i-serpentiae-roman-raiders-of-the-ark.109391/
 
O

One Baptism

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Deadworm said:
(2) THE BIBLICAL BASIS OF PURGATORY

The word "Purgatory" (Latin: "purgatorium") initially appears around 1160 AD), but this concept of postmortem purification has roots in ancient Judaism and the NT. The following 4 texts form a major part of the background for the doctrine of Purgatory:

(1) Catholics refer to 2 Maccabees...
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The books of 'Maccabees' (1-4) has numerous errors in them and contradictions. For instance (citing brother Sam Gipp, with personal notation):

"... That they rejected the Apocrypha as divine is very obvious by the seven reasons which they gave for not incorporating it into the text. They are as follows:

1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone (*with small exception of the Syriac in Daniel, in words scatter throughout) used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.

6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead ...

7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation. ..." - https://samgipp.com/answerbook/?page=34.htm
​
If you would like the material on Antiochus Epiphanes IV, I can cite that also for you.
 
O

One Baptism

Active Member
Deadworm said:
...(4) In a parable Jesus uses the image of a debtor's prison as an allusion to Gehenna: "In anger his Lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34)." The implication is that the debt can theoretically be paid to secure release.
Click to expand...
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). That is the payment.

Also the judgment, spoken of in Matthew 18, is taking place now, since it was future from Christ's day, "which would take account of his servants" (vs 23), and "And when he had begun to reckon" (vs 24). The timeframe takes place while the Everlating Gospel (Revelation 14:6-12) is still available, "Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt." (vs 27), for the servant was able to be forgiven, and still had time to walk right or to mess up, "the same servant went out" (vs 28), etc. Judgment began (at the end of the 2,300 in AD 1844; as per Daniel 7:9-10,22, 8:13-14,26, Revelation 9:13-15, 14:6-12 etc) with the professed deceased who are asleep (Hebrews 9:27), and soo passes to the living professed, Revelation 3:10, 17:12. There is a time coming when the Everlasting Gospel is "finished" ("done") and is no more available (Revelation 8:5, 10:7, etc). There is no such place as 'purgatory'. Notice:

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.​
 
O

One Baptism

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Y

Yeshua1

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One Baptism said:
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). That is the payment.

Also the judgment, spoken of in Matthew 18, is taking place now, since it was future from Christ's day, "which would take account of his servants" (vs 23), and "And when he had begun to reckon" (vs 24). The timeframe takes place while the Everlating Gospel (Revelation 14:6-12) is still available, "Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt." (vs 27), for the servant was able to be forgiven, and still had time to walk right or to mess up, "the same servant went out" (vs 28), etc. Judgment began (at the end of the 2,300 in AD 1844; as per Daniel 7:9-10,22, 8:13-14,26, Revelation 9:13-15, 14:6-12 etc) with the professed deceased who are asleep (Hebrews 9:27), and soo passes to the living professed, Revelation 3:10, 17:12. There is a time coming when the Everlasting Gospel is "finished" ("done") and is no more available (Revelation 8:5, 10:7, etc). There is no such place as 'purgatory'. Notice:

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.​
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NO Investigative Judgement for those in Christ, as their sin debt for all eternity was paid in full when Jesus yelled"It is accomplished"
 
O

One Baptism

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Yeshua1 said:
From the perspective of a false prophetness, but not the scriptures, as She held that having Sunday worship was the sign of the beast!
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Will be (future, based upon condition of the legislation from state powers). Not now is as held by the harlot Mother and daughters (you are here).
 
O

One Baptism

Active Member
Deadworm said:
In this thread I will discuss the biblical basis for Catholic distinctives such as the ... Transubstantiation....
Click to expand...
More on Transubstantiation:

At the beginning it was seen that it was said by Roman Catholicism's doctrine:

“Hence Christ is present in the sacrament with His Flesh and Blood, Body and Soul, Humanity and Divinity. ...

... In the absence of Scriptural proof, the Church finds a warrant for, and a propriety in, rendering Divine worship to the Blessed Sacrament in the most ancient and constant tradition...” - Transubstantiation, Catholic Encyclopedia; - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist​

Indeed, the ancient pagan mysteries, for instance: - http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/monstr.htm

"... The doctrine of the Real Presence developed slowly; its first official formulation was by the Council of Nicea in 787. In 855 a French Benedictine monk, Ratramnus, taught that the consecrated bread and wine were only spiritually, not carnally, the body and blood of Christ. About 1045 Berengar, Archdeacon of Tours, questioned the reality of transubstantiation; he was excommunicated ...

The doctrine was proclaimed as an essential dogma of the Church by the Lateran Council of 1215; and the Council of Trent in 1560 added that every particle of the consecrated wafer, no mater how broken, contains the whole body, blood, and soul of Jesu Christ. Thus one of the oldest ceremonies of primitive religion - the eating of the god - is widely practiced and revered in European and American civilization today. ..." - The Story of Civilization, Volume IV, The Age of Fath, page 741, by Will Durant; A History of Medieval Civilization - Christian, Islamic, and Judaic - from Constantine to Dante: AD. 325-1300; Simon and Schuster, New York: 1950 - https://archive.org/stream/storyofcivilizat04dura#page/741/mode/1up​

*******

"... In a very remarkable passage quoted by A. Erman (ZA xxxviii. [1900] 30-33) Osiris is addressed as follows:

'When canals are dug, ... houses and temples are built, when monuments are transported, and fields are cultivated, when tomb-chapels are excavated, they rest on thee, it is thou who makest them. They are on thy back, though they are more than can be put into writing. [Thy] back hath not an empty place, for they all lie on thy back; but [thou sayest] not: "I am weighted down." Thou art the father and mother of men, they live in thy breath, they eat of the flesh of thy body. The Primeval is thy name.'
​
The last sentence show the process by which Osiris is being gradually transformed. He is now an earth-god; the atmosphere is his also; further, he is beginning to become a god of sustenance- 'they eat of the flesh of thy body.' The process takes another step, in which Osiris is identified, not only with the soil, but also with the grain and the fruiitful plants produced by the soil, and becomes a god of corn and wine. He had already reached this stage by the date of the Pyramid texts. ..." - Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics: Volume IX, Mundas-Phrygians, section 'NATURE (Egyptian)', page 219; edited by James Hastings, with the assistance of John A. Selbie, M.A., D.D. Professor of Old Testament Language and Literature in the United Free Church College, Aberdeen and Louis H. Gray, M.A., Ph.D., sometime fellow in Indo-Iranian Languages in Columbia University, New York; Volume IX, Mundas-Phyrgians, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons; Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1917 - https://books.google.com/books?id=HT0TAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

*******

"... "Af-Osiris, an aspect of Osiris meaning the "flesh of Osiris". ..." - Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities, page 367, edited by Charles Russel Coulter, Patricia Turner - https://books.google.com/books?id=sEIngqiKOugC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

*******

"... Eucharist: ... In Egypt wine and mest cakes (like Hebrew massoth, or unleavened cakes, whence probably the Missa or Mass was named), were sacred to Osiris. ..." - The Encyclopedia of Religions., Volume II. E-M, section "Eucharist", page 76; by John G.R. Forlong; New York, 1906. - https://books.google.com/books?id=maSQ-4Ag5qsC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

*******

"... "The thin, round cake," says Wilkinson, "occurs on all (Egyptian) altars." Almost every jot or tittle in the Egyptian worship had a symbolic meaning. The round disk, so frequent in the sacred emblems of Egypt, symbolised the sun. Now, when Osiris, the sun-divinity, became incarnate, and was born, it was not merely that he should give his life as a sacrifice for men, but that he might also be the life and nourishment of the souls of men. ..." - The Two Babylons or The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife (1853, expanded in 1858), page 147 (PDF), page 148, by Alexander Hislop - https://archive.org/stream/theTwoBabylons/TheTwoBabylons#page/n147/mode/1up​

*******

"... [page 480] the missionaries ... In their amazement, they did not reflect, whether these things were not the natural expression of the religious feeling common to all nations who have reached even a moderate civilization. They did not inquire, whether the same things were not practised by other idolatrous people. They could not suppress their wonder, as they beheld the Cross, the sacred emblem of their own faith, raised as an object of worhip in the temples of Anahuac. They met with it [page 480-481] in various places; and the image of the cross may be seen at this day, sculptured in bas-relief, on the walls of one of the buildings of Palenque, while a figure bearing some resemblance to that of a child is held up to it, as if in adoration. (note. 24)

Their surprise was heightened, when they witnessed a religious rite which reminded them of the Christian [Catholic] communion. On these occasions, an image of the tutelary deity of the Aztecs was made of flour of maize, mixed with blood, and, after consecration by the priests, was distributed among the people, who, as they ate it, "showed signs of humiliation and sorrow, declaring it was the flesh of the deity!" (note. 25) How could the Roman Catholic fail to recognise the awful ceremony of the Eucharist? ... (note 25.: "Lo recibian con gran reverencia, humiliacion, y lagrimas, diciendo que comian la carne de su Dios." Veytia, Hist. Antig., lib. 1, cap. 18. - Also, Acosta, lib. 5, cap. 24.)" - History of the Conquest of Mexico with a Preliminary View of the Ancient Mexican Civilization, and the Life of the Conqueror, Hernando Cortes., Volume II. by William H. Prescott, Author of "The History of Ferdinand and Isabella," "The Conquest of Peru," ETC.; 4th Edition,, In Two Volumes, London: R. Clay, Printer, Bread Street Hill. M.DCCC.XLIX. (1849) - https://archive.org/stream/historyofconques02#page/480/mode/1up and https://archive.org/stream/historyofconques02#page/481/mode/1up​
 
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O

One Baptism

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Deadworm said:
In this thread I will discuss the biblical basis for Catholic distinctives such as the ... Transubstantiation. ...
Click to expand...
More on transubstantiation:

... continued ...

At the beginning it was seen that it was said by Roman Catholicism's doctrine:

“Hence Christ is present in the sacrament with His Flesh and Blood, Body and Soul, Humanity and Divinity. ...

... In the absence of Scriptural proof, the Church finds a warrant for, and a propriety in, rendering Divine worship to the Blessed Sacrament in the most ancient and constant tradition...” - Transubstantiation, Catholic Encyclopedia; - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist​

However, even in simply looking at the words themselves in the Gospels, is Jesus' "Divinity", His "Godhead" (Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9), anywhere mentioned in the following phrases? It is not:

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
​
Where does Jesus say, "This is my Godhead (Divinity)"? Jesus spake of "body" and "blood", neither of which came down from Heaven, but are of the earth, earthy (see Matthew 16:17 in regards the Father; see also 1 Corinthians 15:50; Galatians 1:16; Ephesians 6:12 and especially Hebrews 2:14 along with Philippians 2:5-11, for before taking on Himself human nature, He had not that nature, and did not have that nature until the Mystery of Godliness (Luke 1:31), God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16)).

In fact, the very humanity which Jesus had upon Himself, then, died upon the cross and was buried, the blood spilt at Calvary, the base of the Altar of sacrifice. It was the likeness of sinful flesh (fallen flesh), that was upon the Cross, not the glorified body of the resurrection (which cannot die, cannot be sacrificed, Romans 6:9; Revelation 1:18). How then will Roman Catholicism's doctrine say that the literal aging fallen flesh of Jesus which hung upon the cross give life? When the flesh itself died?

Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.​

Also, consider that Jesus Christ explicitly calls the drink in the cup, the "fruit of the vine", and that He himself had previously drank of the "fruit of the vine". Will Roman Catholicism's doctrine say "the vine" was symbolic of Jesus, "the vine"??? if they do, they undermine their own position of 'the strictest literal'. Additionally, is "the cup" itself drank, or that which is in "the cup" drank? How 'strictly literal' does Roman Catholicism's doctrine choose to be here? Notice, also that Christ Jesus previously drank of this "fruit of the vine", and had eaten of the bread earlier:

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:​
 
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