Featured Questions and their Answers

I do. But as far as fellowship with those who don't exactly believe everything I do, that has been the case for years. That is not the standard for fellowship...agreeing with me, lol. I am to take my fellow Christians as they are, and in whatever stage of development they are in, and nothing more. It's not for me to impose standards when we already have those imposed on us by Christ and His Word.

I can, however...yank a few chains now and then.




God bless.

 

Not in the texts available to us in regards to Enoch directly, no, but we can easily conclude that based on the Whole Counsel, because men simply did not go to Heaven unredeemed on an eternal basis.

I heard David Jeremiah (who I have a great respect for) say the other day something along the lines of "These are the only two men who went to Heaven without dying. This is a preview of the Rapture." Greatly disappointed in such a statement because in the Rapture we will be changed, because we will be resurrected physically. We will not die physically, but unless we want to say these two were glorified prior to Christ (which is a doctrine of cults and contrary to some very basic truths) we must say they went to Heaven in the physical bodies they had.

And Paul restricts such a view:


1 Corinthians 15:50-53 King James Version (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


The point is pretty simple: in view is the resurrection of the physical body, and he makes it clear this is necessary for the physical to enter Heaven. We know the spirits of the just and those since born again go to Heaven, but not in bodily form.

I commented on this:

I can see, since I did not clarify metatithēmi as the word translated translated (lol), that this was rather vague on my part.


God bless.

 

Here's a good question Darrell...

If he was not transported to heaven yet he was made immortal (immune from death) then where is he?

Still hangin' around earth?

 

And misspells ignorant.

 

In the case of Enoch we don't see anything that suggests he was made immune to death. We are simply told God took him and he was not found, and that he did not "see" death, which in the other post I suggested that the "seeing" in view deals with "experience" or "knowledge." In other words, he did not go through the experience of death as men usually do. He was taken and changed, which implies something that correlates to the rest of Scripture...he did not remain in the same state he was when God took him. We could view the translation as from one place to another as well, such as it is found (in one of the six times it is used) here:

Acts 7:15-16 King James Version (KJV)

15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,

16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.


This occurs in the New Testament as well (a person being taken from one place to another):


Acts 8:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

While this is not the word metathesis, but the word harpazō, it holds a similar meaning to that which we see in Hebrews 11. At least in the sense that we have God taking someone. Philip wasn't taken to Heaven, but to another location. So too, with Enoch, to remain consistent in regards to what is taught concerning the disposition of the dead prior to the Cross, it is most likely that Enoch was instantly taken to Hades (Abraham's Bosom/the place of the Just(ified)) and did not go through the death he would have died had he not pleased God.

I will admit we do at times see exceptions to general rules, but, what we cannot say is that Enoch, or Elijah...were glorified and taken to Heaven. Christ is the Firstborn from the dead, the Firstfruits, meaning He is the first to rise from the dead never to die again, and this because He is the first to be glorified (given a body that unlike our bodies is immortal and incorruptible):

Acts 26:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

I view this to be the same thing to happen to Elijah, because after Elijah is "caught up to heaven" we see Jehoram receive a letter of rebuke from him:


2 Chronicles 21:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:

14 Behold, with a great plague will the Lord smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:

15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.


I think Elijah's ministry had come to an end and he was taken by God...somewhere else.

That is more consistent with the teachings of Scripture than that they were taken to heaven. This is probably a result of certain Prophetic views that think that Elijah and Enoch may be the two witnesses, and come back for this ministry to die the death they skirted, because, after all, it is appointed to all men once to die. The problem with that is that by the mid-point of the Tribulation many will have been raptured in the Pre-Trib Rapture, so this reasoning makes little sense. Something else to consider is that Elijah appears on the mount of transfiguration with Moses, a man we know died. It was the spirit of Moses that is seen by the disciples, so it makes sense to view Elijah as also in spirit form (departed from his physical body).

We just can't get around the fact that men simply did not go to Heaven when they died prior to the Cross. So while there may be an exception to the rule, if there is, then Enoch and Elijah didn't go to Heaven, but the same place everyone else went prior to the Atonement: Hades. When we see the spirit of Saul called up...he is called up, not down. And while we could argue "Well it is unlikely that a witch had the power to call up Saul," the fact is God forbade that activity so there is a reason why it was forbidden. If Saul is numbered among the Just at his death (and I see no reason not to take that view), then it is very possible that he could leave Hades for an appearance on earth. We see this with Elijah and Moses, so why not Saul? When the Lord appears to the disciples after His Resurrection, disciples who are still unbelieving in the Resurrection (and in fact the Gospel of Christ itself, because He had told them He would rise after three days), they suppose that they are seeing...a spirit. This validates that they, first century Jews, believed man to be two parts, body and spirit. So if Jesus was dead, He was no longer in the physical body, and we know precisely where He went...Hades.

I agree with Steaver in regards to his interpretation and application of this...


Ephesians 4:8-10 King James Version (KJV)

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


The "lower (or low) parts of the earth" can be seen to refer to both the earth as well as Hades in the Old Testament:

Consider:


Ezekiel 26:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;


It is used in a sense often of a dungeon. So we see a statement that Christ led captive those who were held captive, which corresponds with the concept of the Just being liberated from Hades after their sins had been redeemed by the Cross of Christ (Hebrews 9:15).

Ephesians 4:8 correlates to Christ's Own statement...


John 3:13-14 King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

I'm okay with believing that what Christ means here is "No man has ascended to Heaven." He has ascended to Heaven numerous times, such as when He (The Son of God) manifested to Abraham on the plains of Mamre (Genesis 18).

Verse 14 above, getting back to the primary focus, tells us how men are born again. It answers Nicodemus' question "How can these things (being born from above, born of the Spirit) be?"

John 1 also marks in time when men received the power to become sons of God (to be born of God):


John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


This began no sooner than Christ coming. And it was for only those who received Him. Not as Messiah, because many were willing to believe He was the One prophesied of (though oddly enough John the Baptist wasn't sure, Matthew 11:3), but not even the disciples were believing the Gospel (Mark 16:9-14) because they knew not the Scripture...that He should rise from the dead (John 20:9). And even when Christ begins to tell the the Gospel (which is decidedly late in His Ministry), Peter rejects it (Matthew 16:20-23).

So I hope that answers your question as to where they went when they died.




God bless.

 

It was intentional. Get it, Ignore, IGNOREant?

You, my friend...are ignoreant. You said so yourself.



Really bad when one has to explain Regeneration and their humor...


God bless.

 

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Actually no one knows "he was not found", and he did not see death.

That's how I would like to go ...

 

Well, you can adopt the same attitude I and Paul have...and desire earnestly the Rapture, lol (2 Corinthians 5:1-8). The good news is we won't be going to Hades, but will be with God.


God bless.

 

Oh did I forget to mention that