Following up on a recent thread where I did not get the chance to address all the posts, I would like to continue the discussion concerning whether men were born again in Old Testament Eras. Those who say they were offer very little to support their position while if you read the other thread you will see the many passages showing that Regeneration is a result of one being brought into relationship with God through Christ, that Eternal Redemption differs and is not to be equated to the Justification of the Old Testament Saint, and that Regeneration is the result of one being brought into Eternal Union with God. We are new creatures because we are in Christ. We have received the Life that Christ came to give, which, according to His teaching is Eternal Life. Yet many think eternal life was bestowed prior to Christ coming, the problem is...they have no Scriptural support. Nor can they deny the Passages which show that it is only after the Spirit (in the Ministry of Comforter) comes at Pentecost that we see men made one in Christ. Jews and Gentiles were not one prior to Pentecost. The Disciples of Christ were not in Christ prior to Pentecost.
So to kick things off, I would like to bring up a post I didn't get to in the last thread:
@JonShaff
This is the statement of support::
Now let's look at each point:
I will start with a few passages that deny that:
John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The power to become the sons of God is stated to begin when Christ came.
Galatians 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Again, we receive the adoption of sons only after Christ comes. At the appointed time God sent His Son to, and watch this...
...redeem them that were under the Law. The fact is the Old Testament Saint needed, and waited for the Redemption promised by God beginning in Genesis 3:15.
Note that because we are made sons God has sent the Spirit of His Son into out hearts.
Now we see Christ prophesy this truth and we can know for certain that not even the disciples of Christ had received this yet:
John 14:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Note v.18, this correlates to God sending the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. We know the Comforter could not come until Christ left (returned to Heaven, John 16:7), so the conclusion is that what Christ prophesies (which was promised by God to men in the Old Testament) will take place in the future. On the very Day of Ascension the Disciples were still awaiting the Promise of the Spirit, which Christ defines as being Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which Peter, in Acts 11:13-18, defines as the very moment of their salvation.
One more for now:
1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Regeneration is accomplished through the Resurrection of life. In other words, no Resurrection...no life. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and while there are those who try to impose the Atonement into the Old Testament, Scripture makes it clear there was a point in time when God sent His Son that we might have Life, and this...Eternal. We have this life solely in our being in Him, and He in us.
That is correct. This is the filling of the Spirit which is something that still takes place in the lives of those who have the Spirit...in them. This too is prophesied by Christ which shows it was not happening:
John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
We have just looked at this but I thought it good to place this passage together, because we are going to see validation of the Unity of God and the Trinity. In vv.17 and 18 we see that the Spirit and the Son will come to us.
But look, if you will, at v.17, and the emphasis presented: the Holy Ghost was with the disciples, which would have referred to the filling of the Spirit in His Old Testament ministry of empowerment for ministry, but, what is to come is the Spirit of God being in them/us.
That wasn't happening at the time of this teaching, it is prophecy and promise. And defined by Christ in Acts 1:4-5 as the Promise of the Father, taught to them by Christ (this passage being a primary text of that teaching), and is, again, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, or in simpler terms, whenw e are immersed into God in Eternal Union.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Think about it folks: if God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost making His abode in the Disciples is a future event...why would anyone argue to impose this into an Old Testament Age? And at the time of this teaching...we are still within the Age of Law. Look at Galatians 4 again, Christ was made under the Law, and one of the most important things you will understand when trying to understand the relationship of Christ's earthly Ministry (which was to the Lost Sheep of Israel only, as opposed as His salvific ministry to the world) is that Christ did minister under the Law and more importantly...within the framework of the revelation provided men at that point. He expounded upon the mysteries of the Kingdom, because that was the promise of God to Israel, but, He did not reveal the Mystery of the Gospel.
Now we ask ourselves...can a man be regenerated and not have eternal life? Not have Eternal Redemption? Not be in God? Not have the Spirit? It would be absurd to think this, yet many do.
Old Testament Saints did not.
All they had was the earthly parable of entrance to God. Their relationship with God was through the Covenant of Law. When Christ states I am the True Vine, He contrasts Himself with the Covenant of Law (and by extension Israel) as the True Vine, or in other words, the new means of Relationship they were to embrace. Thinking His command to "abide" is simply a matter of remaining faithful to Christ is a poor understanding of John 15, because the simple fact is that not one of the disciples...continued to "abide" in Him in that respect. They were, as Prophecy foretold...scattered like sheep. Peter going so far as to deny he even knew Christ. Denying he was a disciple. That is a far cry from "abiding," wouldn't you say?
So we start out with Jon's statement where we see nothing that supports regeneration in the Old Testament, simply the claim. There is another issue he has raised which was discussed but we will wait for that for the time being, because I open this thread to any holding to Pre-Pentecost Regeneration to address the simple, yet irrefutable truths already given in the OP.
God bless.
So to kick things off, I would like to bring up a post I didn't get to in the last thread:
@JonShaff
This is the statement of support::
JonShaff said:
Now let's look at each point:
JonShaff said:
I will start with a few passages that deny that:
John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The power to become the sons of God is stated to begin when Christ came.
Galatians 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Again, we receive the adoption of sons only after Christ comes. At the appointed time God sent His Son to, and watch this...
...redeem them that were under the Law. The fact is the Old Testament Saint needed, and waited for the Redemption promised by God beginning in Genesis 3:15.
Note that because we are made sons God has sent the Spirit of His Son into out hearts.
Now we see Christ prophesy this truth and we can know for certain that not even the disciples of Christ had received this yet:
John 14:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Note v.18, this correlates to God sending the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. We know the Comforter could not come until Christ left (returned to Heaven, John 16:7), so the conclusion is that what Christ prophesies (which was promised by God to men in the Old Testament) will take place in the future. On the very Day of Ascension the Disciples were still awaiting the Promise of the Spirit, which Christ defines as being Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which Peter, in Acts 11:13-18, defines as the very moment of their salvation.
One more for now:
1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Regeneration is accomplished through the Resurrection of life. In other words, no Resurrection...no life. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and while there are those who try to impose the Atonement into the Old Testament, Scripture makes it clear there was a point in time when God sent His Son that we might have Life, and this...Eternal. We have this life solely in our being in Him, and He in us.
JonShaff said:
That is correct. This is the filling of the Spirit which is something that still takes place in the lives of those who have the Spirit...in them. This too is prophesied by Christ which shows it was not happening:
John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
We have just looked at this but I thought it good to place this passage together, because we are going to see validation of the Unity of God and the Trinity. In vv.17 and 18 we see that the Spirit and the Son will come to us.
But look, if you will, at v.17, and the emphasis presented: the Holy Ghost was with the disciples, which would have referred to the filling of the Spirit in His Old Testament ministry of empowerment for ministry, but, what is to come is the Spirit of God being in them/us.
That wasn't happening at the time of this teaching, it is prophecy and promise. And defined by Christ in Acts 1:4-5 as the Promise of the Father, taught to them by Christ (this passage being a primary text of that teaching), and is, again, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, or in simpler terms, whenw e are immersed into God in Eternal Union.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Think about it folks: if God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost making His abode in the Disciples is a future event...why would anyone argue to impose this into an Old Testament Age? And at the time of this teaching...we are still within the Age of Law. Look at Galatians 4 again, Christ was made under the Law, and one of the most important things you will understand when trying to understand the relationship of Christ's earthly Ministry (which was to the Lost Sheep of Israel only, as opposed as His salvific ministry to the world) is that Christ did minister under the Law and more importantly...within the framework of the revelation provided men at that point. He expounded upon the mysteries of the Kingdom, because that was the promise of God to Israel, but, He did not reveal the Mystery of the Gospel.
Now we ask ourselves...can a man be regenerated and not have eternal life? Not have Eternal Redemption? Not be in God? Not have the Spirit? It would be absurd to think this, yet many do.
JonShaff said:
Old Testament Saints did not.
All they had was the earthly parable of entrance to God. Their relationship with God was through the Covenant of Law. When Christ states I am the True Vine, He contrasts Himself with the Covenant of Law (and by extension Israel) as the True Vine, or in other words, the new means of Relationship they were to embrace. Thinking His command to "abide" is simply a matter of remaining faithful to Christ is a poor understanding of John 15, because the simple fact is that not one of the disciples...continued to "abide" in Him in that respect. They were, as Prophecy foretold...scattered like sheep. Peter going so far as to deny he even knew Christ. Denying he was a disciple. That is a far cry from "abiding," wouldn't you say?
So we start out with Jon's statement where we see nothing that supports regeneration in the Old Testament, simply the claim. There is another issue he has raised which was discussed but we will wait for that for the time being, because I open this thread to any holding to Pre-Pentecost Regeneration to address the simple, yet irrefutable truths already given in the OP.
God bless.
