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Geocentricity: What's It Hurt?

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
I'm not following your logic.
Abandon Randy Alcorn, and you'll do better. He's nuts. His teachings are more akin to Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses than to Biblical Christianity.

You think God's throne has a location somewhere in outer space, and that angels are corporeal agents probably because of the superstitions surrounding the Nephilim, ignoring the fact that we're explicitly told that angels are spirits.

You haven't said it, but if you are a disciple of Alcorn's, then you believe that our reward is to live forever in a paradise on earth—this earth, in corporeal bodies.

You dream up in your head things about a culture you can know nothing about. You imagine a library that was preserved on the Ark and survived till the days of Moses, which gave Moses his source material for writing Genesis. You imagine that culture more advanced, probably because of interbreeding with gods. It's like you're writing a story about Atlantis.

When pressed for evidence of your presuppositions, you accuse the examiner of questioning the Scripture.

Do you want to imagine the antediluvian culture? Let's go by what were told about it:

The wickedness was great, and every imagination of the thoughts of men's hearts was only evil continually. They corrupted their way and filled—filled—the earth with violence. Instead of romanticizing this culture, it's more properly thought of like that of Sodom on a global scale, where one could look forward to being gang raped and murdered.

How do you think the children fared?

A culture wholly given to its appetites is not advancing, it's devolving from whatever height it may have been able to reach without the light of the Gospel into a hodgepodge of warring tribes. They were corrupt and took pleasure in beastiality and all forms of sodomy.

A culture like that is not focused on the preservation of it's heritage, and likely actively worked to purge itself of any hint of the light and goodness they hated. Fat, loud and violent, like the feminists marching naked with genitalia costumes and shouting their profanities and deifying and smearing their uncleanness wherever they go.

We are told, however, of something of that culture was brought onto the Ark in the heart of Ham, who indulged himself in his father's nakedness when he had gotten drunk.

If you want to go back and forth about what the antediluvian culture may have been like, or the location of Heaven, or whether or not angles are corporeal beings, the authorship of Genesis, or whether or not Alcorn is a nut, I'm game, but let's do it in another thread.
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Wow, Aaron's mind reading ability had taken a quantum leap forward. Amazing ability you have there, sir!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
 

RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
A few things cosmology can tell us today:
  1. The universe is billions of light years across, yet the necessary size for a planet like ours.
  2. The universe had a definite beginning with physics too unique to be a mere roll of the dice.
  3. Our planet is ideally situated and suited for even very advanced life to survive and thrive.
  4. Our planet is ideally situated to observe most of the rest of the universe.
  5. Our solar system, and especially our planet, is too unique to be a mere roll of the dice.
What cosmology cannot tell us is where the “dice” came from, who rigged the roll, and why.

You have to be more specific when you say cosmology, because Geocentrism is a cosmology.

The prevailing cosmology, The Big Bang, has a number of problems. Most notable is the need for theoretical dark matter and dark energy to prop it up. But assuming the universe has a center and edge, the observations of astronomers can be explained without the need of dark matter or energy, but the earth has to be in, or somewhere very near the center.
Are you saying whatever you mean by Geocentrism disagrees with the entire list? Do you disagree with the last sentence about what cosmology cannot tell us? Who said Big Bang cosmology has problems as you describe? Who claims a centered earth would solve said problems? Please post a link to your Geocentric cosmology that explains how it works.
 

RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
FYI: when I started this thread, I was wholly convinced of Relativity. Now, I do not believe geocentricity to be certainly fallacious.

No model is a scientific certainty. I see no compelling reason to explain the geocentrism of the Bible in relative terms.
I just came across a Jesuit scientist, Giovanni Riccioli, who opposed Gallileo and rejected the idea of heliocentricity. Among his numerous objections was that cannonballs should be observed to behave differently if the earth turns. The Riccioli... oops, I mean Coriolis Effect would await discovery another two centuries. Meanwhile life goes on, and the truth is the truth regardless of belief.

You can believe general relativity or not, but that does not affect the truth. Caution should be exercised in how data is/are interpreted, and how interpretations are interpreted. Just because we cannot locate an edge or a center does not mean they aren’t there. With the universe expanding, and our limitations in seeing, we may just be unable to determine them.

On a side note, that the universe seems to expand at an accelerated rate has depressed some proponents of scientism, as our ability to learn more about the universe will decrease, not increase.
 

RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
and mechanical with no less truth value than any other construct. In other words, according to Relativity, it is no more true to say the earth goes round the sun than it is to say the sun goes round the earth.

The theories assume the universe has no center or edge. That doesn't mean they're saying the universe is infinite. They're not saying that. They're saying our 3d space is like the 2d surface of a balloon. No center, no edge. If we draw dots on the balloon, then inflate it, we would observe all the dots moving away from each other at the same rate. If we sent an observer to any point in the universe, he would see the same thing that we see on earth, all the galaxies (outside his local neighborhood) moving away from his platform at the same rate. And he could explain them, not mathematically only, but mechanically as well.

This assumption can't be tested. To test it we have to send an observer to a distant galaxy for a look-see, so it's the preferred assumption. If they assume an edge or a center, then the observations of astronomers puts us observers in or very near the center of the universe. That's not acceptable, because that would imply design and purpose.

What that means is this: whether or not the earth moves is a philosophical construct, not a scientific one. It cannot be proven with observation or experiment.

Can you list some of the benefits?

Exactly. Meaning that depending upon one's philosophical preference, the geocentric model might be the true one. Meaning, Luther and Calvin were right. The earth doesn't move.

Only on local scale. On the universal scale, it doesn't.
I agree that the relativity equations apply to physical reality, that they are not just math. General relativity applies to accelerating frames of reference. I get the impression that your theory of geocentricity is based on general relativity being true.

I think I need to back up a bit here. You seem confused on what classical geocentricity and classical heliocentricity are and how they conflict. Heliocentricity not only noted that the earth revolves around the sun in an elliptical orbit, but also that it rotates on its axis at an angle to the sun. A huge paradigm shift that has led to many more scientific realizations.

The GPS example is a real one. It is not based on geocentricity at all but on science from heliocentricity. Kepler’s Laws and Newton’s Laws came after not before. The weather is better understood from knowing the earth rotates on its axis. The resultant Coriolis forces are real, and their effects.
 

Calminian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Abandon Randy Alcorn, and you'll do better. He's nuts. His teachings are more akin to Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses than to Biblical Christianity.

Alcorn is teaching mormon and Jw doctrine. So silly, no need to respond.

You think God's throne has a location somewhere in outer space, and that angels are corporeal agents probably because of the superstitions surrounding the Nephilim, ignoring the fact that we're explicitly told that angels are spirits.

could be, I don't know. what I do know is you've steeped yourself in geocentric cosmology which likely has resulted in you spiritualizing heaven and angels. i think that's what your OP is about, whether or not geocentrism does any harm. i don't know if heaven is in the universe or at some physical location beyond. but I do know it's a place.

You haven't said it, but if you are a disciple of Alcorn's, then you believe that our reward is to live forever in a paradise on earth—this earth, in corporeal bodies.

Man, Alcorn's in your head big time. Sounds like you have an ax to grind. Even accusing him of aligning himself with cults.

You dream up in your head things about a culture you can know nothing about. You imagine a library that was preserved on the Ark and survived till the days of Moses, which gave Moses his source material for writing Genesis.....

Yeah, basically, expect the Genesis account is replete with textual evidence for preexisting writings.

Do you want to imagine the antediluvian culture? Let's go by what were told about it:

The wickedness was great, and every imagination of the thoughts of men's hearts was only evil continually. They corrupted their way and filled—filled—the earth with violence. Instead of romanticizing this culture, it's more properly thought of like that of Sodom on a global scale, where one could look forward to being gang raped and murdered.

Just like Moses' culture. Evil cultures were all around Israel. So what's the big deal? Are you saying because the antediluvian culture was wicked, Noah's writings were corrupt? Doesn't this contradict the text?

The events of Genesis 1-8 are set in antediluvian times, and thus Adam, Noah and Shem were steeped in that culture, and not ANE culture. That's why Lamoureux, Seely, Walton and the like are dead wrong in trying to impose ANE culture onto the Genesis text. They are guilty of what they accuse others of.

A culture like that is not focused on the preservation of it's heritage, and likely actively worked to purge itself of any hint of the light and goodness they hated. Fat, loud and violent, like the feminists marching naked with genitalia costumes and shouting their profanities and deifying and smearing their uncleanness wherever they go.

We are told, however, of something of that culture was brought onto the Ark in the heart of Ham, who indulged himself in his father's nakedness when he had gotten drunk.

Wow, so you reject the testimony of the Text that Noah was a righteous man and resisted the culture of his day? Do you really want to impugn Noah's character?
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Are you saying whatever you mean by Geocentrism disagrees with the entire list?
No

Do you disagree with the last sentence about what cosmology cannot tell us?
No, but that didn't stop them from imagining the Multiverse and Boltzmann Brains: cosmologies that tell us where the “dice” came from, who rigged the roll, and why.

Who said Big Bang cosmology has problems as you describe?
Every Big Bang cosmologist, but they don't call them problems. There's the Horizon Problem which necessitated the creation of the Inflation theory, and the Expansion Problem that requires more energy than the observable universe can yield, the speed of galactic rotation which requires much more mass than is observed to hold the galaxies together.

96% of the universe has to be made up of energy and matter that is completely undetectable and has no other effect except to hold everything together in the Big Bang model. They call it dark matter and dark energy. The Big Bang cosmology needs it, so it must be there.

Who claims a centered earth would solve said problems?
Two notable physicists: John Hartnett and Russell Humphreys. They both have books called Starlight and Time. Hartnett both specifically stated that their models do not require dark matter or energy. Hartnett goes in depth about the Hubble constant and other such stuff, and he takes pains to make the material comprehensible to the uninitiated. Humphreys was the first I read that told me about the assumptions behind

Jason Lisle works for Answers in Genesis, and isn't a Geocentrist, but he calls himself a Galactocentrist. Our Milky Way is at the center, rejecting the acentric model of Relativity.

There are more, and I haven't created a bibliography and won't. You can search the reputable Creation science sites like Answers in Genesis and The Institute in Creation Research.

There is no "geocentrism site" I go too. When I Google Geocentrism or the Geocentric Model, I find mostly criticisms and mocking of vocal geocentrists, but I read them anyway and go to the primary sources. I found that both apostles of modern physics, Einstein and Hawking will say that there is no advantage of any model over the other, and neither can be proved. (I've also found those presenting evidence that Einstein was wrong.)

I think the most remarkable thing I've stumbled across is the CMB map and how the dipoles and quadrupoles are aligned with the earth's ecliptic and equinox planes. The alignment is there. No one disputes it and science has dubbed the arrangement as the Axis of Evil, because it violates the Cosmological Principle (the acentric, boundless view of the universe) and plots the earth in the middle. The CMB was mapped three times, billions of dollars spent to verify the findings and eliminate foreground contamination as a cause of the apparent structure thereof. It's there. It has a structure, and that means direction in space, a frame of reference where absolute motion can be measured.

Am I convinced of the geocentric model? Not totally, but I've found that the motion of the earth is not a scientific certainty, as we've been told growing up. Ptolemy may have been right. And science hasn't proven Calvin and Luther wrong, and I no longer feel that the geocentric language of the Bible needs explaining in relative terms to make it palatable or to give me credibility to atheistic cosmologists, like is being done with the days of Creation.

Please post a link to your Geocentric cosmology that explains how it works.
Like I said. I don't have one.

But you don't have to learn about Relativity, except to be able to answer the evidence that is commonly tossed up like the Coriolis Effect and the Foucault Pendulum, and to understand that the General and Special theories contradict one another, most notably with the supposed speed limit of the universe. General relativity says that in strong gravitational or inertial forces light and bodies can travel many orders of magnitude faster than the limit imposed by the Special theory, and other such things. Who cares?

Nothing depends upon the heliocentric model, except philosophy.That is all. And that's no surprise, because the reason the stars were created were to be read from earth to understand times and seasons. Adam was not given a telescope. The stars have meaning when viewed from the surface of the earth. That doesn't mean we can't send probes and such to look closer, just like doctors aren't forbidden to cut a man open, but that doesn't mean man was intended to walk about with his organs in view.

Two years ago, I was talking about Martin Luther. We owe a great debt to Luther and Calvin for the liberties we enjoy in the West, and it's liberty in the Christian world view that put our technological advancement in warp speed. My daughter, who is picking up on liberal philosophies in her studies, said, "Luther opposed Galileo. He said the Bible describes sun in motion, not the earth, so the Catholics were right to arrest him." There you have it. The Bible is geocentric, so you can't trust it fully. Case closed. (Ironically, this was a few short months after I had mentioned how neat it was to be on a world speeding through space in a circuit around the sun. And, ironically, her response was, it would be better if it felt that way. I had to concede. Oh for a TARDIS.)

Well, the case with Luther and Galileo wasn't exactly as she had been told, but then I thought, How does one go about neutralizing the geocentric objections without having to become a theoretical physicist? I'd read Hartnett and Humphreys years prior to this, but that was because I wanted to know how they answered the puzzle of distant starlight in a young universe. So then I asked, what do we have that is of any real use to mankind in any facet of his life, that is dependent upon the knowledge that it is the earth that is moving, and not the sun? And there is none.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
I just came across a Jesuit scientist, Giovanni Riccioli, who opposed Gallileo and rejected the idea of heliocentricity. Among his numerous objections was that cannonballs should be observed to behave differently if the earth turns. The Riccioli... oops, I mean Coriolis Effect would await discovery another two centuries. Meanwhile life goes on, and the truth is the truth regardless of belief.

You can believe general relativity or not, but that does not affect the truth. Caution should be exercised in how data is/are interpreted, and how interpretations are interpreted. Just because we cannot locate an edge or a center does not mean they aren’t there. With the universe expanding, and our limitations in seeing, we may just be unable to determine them.

On a side note, that the universe seems to expand at an accelerated rate has depressed some proponents of scientism, as our ability to learn more about the universe will decrease, not increase.
Yes, yes, yes. The Coriolis Effect and the Foucault Pendulum are well known to the physicists who will readily admit that we can assume a stationary earth and explain them both.

They're saying that. I'm not.

And you're right about the edge and center. Here's the rub: to put the earth anywhere but the center (or very near it), and still explain the observations of astronomers, the universe cannot have an edge or center. The physicists I named in a previous post say that, as well as did Edwin Hubble, who discovered that the distant stars were mostly other galaxies, and who also discovered that the light from all of them (except a few closest ones) is redshifted.

The redshift can be explained by either by distance or acceleration. Either way, to keep the earth out of the center of the phenomenon, the universe has to be isotropic, acentric and unbounded.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
I agree that the relativity equations apply to physical reality, that they are not just math. General relativity applies to accelerating frames of reference. I get the impression that your theory of geocentricity is based on general relativity being true.

I think I need to back up a bit here. You seem confused on what classical geocentricity and classical heliocentricity are and how they conflict. Heliocentricity not only noted that the earth revolves around the sun in an elliptical orbit, but also that it rotates on its axis at an angle to the sun. A huge paradigm shift that has led to many more scientific realizations.

The GPS example is a real one. It is not based on geocentricity at all but on science from heliocentricity. Kepler’s Laws and Newton’s Laws came after not before. The weather is better understood from knowing the earth rotates on its axis. The resultant Coriolis forces are real, and their effects.
The geocentrism of Ptolemy and the heliocentrism of Copernicus doesn't transfer.

I am not saying the earth is in the center of the solar system and that it holds the sun and planets in orbit around it, and that is not what modern geocentrists are saying either. And heliocentrism is moot. So what that the sun is the center of the solar system? Relativity is not heliocentric. It is acentric. And, no, the GPS does not depend on knowing the motion of the earth. Since the earth is the reference, it is assumed to be stationary.

But GPS doesn't feed the hungry or clothe the naked or heal the sick, or raise its voice for the widow and orphan. Some GPS phenomena was cited as evidence against the special theory of relativity*, which, if falsified, means that the luminiferous ether (which is asserted in the General theory, though of a different nature) may exist, and if it does exist, The Michelson-Morley experiment failed to detect it, which would mean the earth is stationary.

*https://www.ion.org/publications/abstract.cfm?articleID=754
 
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Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Man, Alcorn's in your head big time. Sounds like you have an ax to grind. Even accusing him of aligning himself with cults.
No, you cited him to shore up your JW and Mormonish ideas.



Yeah, basically, expect the Genesis account is replete with textual evidence for preexisting writings.
Cite it.



Just like Moses' culture. Evil cultures were all around Israel. So what's the big deal?
It was a depravity that God responded to with total destruction, like that of Sodom. Egypt hadn't gotten there.

Are you saying because the antediluvian culture was wicked, Noah's writings were corrupt? Doesn't this contradict the text?
Noaic authorship. There's a new one. You're just pulling stuff out of your butt and calling it scholarship.

The events of Genesis 1-8 are set in antediluvian times, and thus Adam, Noah and Shem were steeped in that culture, and not ANE culture.
So? You're assuming Adam Noah and Shem were historians that committed things to writing. What in particular in the text is a phrase or idiom or part of speech that is indicative of that culture?

I keep asking, and you keep not answering.

Wow, so you reject the testimony of the Text that Noah was a righteous man and resisted the culture of his day? Do you really want to impugn Noah's character?
I didn't say anything about Noah. I said something about Ham.

I'm done. I don't have time to discuss the fairy tales of your imagination and Jewish fables.
 

RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
No

No, but that didn't stop them from imagining the Multiverse and Boltzmann Brains: cosmologies that tell us where the “dice” came from, who rigged the roll, and why.

Every Big Bang cosmologist, but they don't call them problems. There's the Horizon Problem which necessitated the creation of the Inflation theory, and the Expansion Problem that requires more energy than the observable universe can yield, the speed of galactic rotation which requires much more mass than is observed to hold the galaxies together.

96% of the universe has to be made up of energy and matter that is completely undetectable and has no other effect except to hold everything together in the Big Bang model. They call it dark matter and dark energy. The Big Bang cosmology needs it, so it must be there.

Two notable physicists: John Hartnett and Russell Humphreys. They both have books called Starlight and Time. Hartnett both specifically stated that their models do not require dark matter or energy. Hartnett goes in depth about the Hubble constant and other such stuff, and he takes pains to make the material comprehensible to the uninitiated. Humphreys was the first I read that told me about the assumptions behind

Jason Lisle works for Answers in Genesis, and isn't a Geocentrist, but he calls himself a Galactocentrist. Our Milky Way is at the center, rejecting the acentric model of Relativity.

There are more, and I haven't created a bibliography and won't. You can search the reputable Creation science sites like Answers in Genesis and The Institute in Creation Research.

There is no "geocentrism site" I go too. When I Google Geocentrism or the Geocentric Model, I find mostly criticisms and mocking of vocal geocentrists, but I read them anyway and go to the primary sources. I found that both apostles of modern physics, Einstein and Hawking will say that there is no advantage of any model over the other, and neither can be proved. (I've also found those presenting evidence that Einstein was wrong.)

I think the most remarkable thing I've stumbled across is the CMB map and how the dipoles and quadrupoles are aligned with the earth's ecliptic and equinox planes. The alignment is there. No one disputes it and science has dubbed the arrangement as the Axis of Evil, because it violates the Cosmological Principle (the acentric, boundless view of the universe) and plots the earth in the middle. The CMB was mapped three times, billions of dollars spent to verify the findings and eliminate foreground contamination as a cause of the apparent structure thereof. It's there. It has a structure, and that means direction in space, a frame of reference where absolute motion can be measured.

Am I convinced of the geocentric model? Not totally, but I've found that the motion of the earth is not a scientific certainty, as we've been told growing up. Ptolemy may have been right. And science hasn't proven Calvin and Luther wrong, and I no longer feel that the geocentric language of the Bible needs explaining in relative terms to make it palatable or to give me credibility to atheistic cosmologists, like is being done with the days of Creation.

Like I said. I don't have one.

But you don't have to learn about Relativity, except to be able to answer the evidence that is commonly tossed up like the Coriolis Effect and the Foucault Pendulum, and to understand that the General and Special theories contradict one another, most notably with the supposed speed limit of the universe. General relativity says that in strong gravitational or inertial forces light and bodies can travel many orders of magnitude faster than the limit imposed by the Special theory, and other such things. Who cares?

Nothing depends upon the heliocentric model, except philosophy.That is all. And that's no surprise, because the reason the stars were created were to be read from earth to understand times and seasons. Adam was not given a telescope. The stars have meaning when viewed from the surface of the earth. That doesn't mean we can't send probes and such to look closer, just like doctors aren't forbidden to cut a man open, but that doesn't mean man was intended to walk about with his organs in view.

Two years ago, I was talking about Martin Luther. We owe a great debt to Luther and Calvin for the liberties we enjoy in the West, and it's liberty in the Christian world view that put our technological advancement in warp speed. My daughter, who is picking up on liberal philosophies in her studies, said, "Luther opposed Galileo. He said the Bible describes sun in motion, not the earth, so the Catholics were right to arrest him." There you have it. The Bible is geocentric, so you can't trust it fully. Case closed. (Ironically, this was a few short months after I had mentioned how neat it was to be on a world speeding through space in a circuit around the sun. And, ironically, her response was, it would be better if it felt that way. I had to concede. Oh for a TARDIS.)

Well, the case with Luther and Galileo wasn't exactly as she had been told, but then I thought, How does one go about neutralizing the geocentric objections without having to become a theoretical physicist? I'd read Hartnett and Humphreys years prior to this, but that was because I wanted to know how they answered the puzzle of distant starlight in a young universe. So then I asked, what do we have that is of any real use to mankind in any facet of his life, that is dependent upon the knowledge that it is the earth that is moving, and not the sun? And there is none.
The enemies of heliocentricity were not arguing for or against some modern relativistic theory. The sun rising and setting has nothing to do with relativity. It is a matter of whether the earth rotates in its solar orbit or the sun orbits the earth. It’s the former, not the latter. Case closed.

Where Luther or Calvin opposed heliocentricity, they did the church no favors, but I’m not certain the latter was heavily involved in the matter (https://www.ligonier.org/blog/luther-calvin-and-copernicus-reformed-approach-science-and-scripture/). In any case, they did much good and this should be acknowledged.

However, ad hominem attacks are common, and to be expected. The quote of your daughter leaves it ambiguous. Arrest whom, Luther or Galileo? They opposed, arrested, and tried them both.;)

Of course the world is hostile to the Gospel, and many attempt to indoctrinate against it. The solution is to be very familiar with God’s Word and to develop critical thinking skills. Ask penetrating questions. Be fairly skeptical of all positions. Learn to test the spirits. Embrace the truth.:Thumbsup
 

RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
The geocentrism of Ptolemy and the heliocentrism of Copernicus doesn't transfer.

I am not saying the earth is in the center of the solar system and that it holds the sun and planets in orbit around it, and that is not what modern geocentrists are saying either. And heliocentrism is moot. So what that the sun is the center of the solar system? Relativity is not heliocentric. It is acentric. And, no, the GPS does not depend on knowing the motion of the earth. Since the earth is the reference, it is assumed to be stationary.
Heliocentricity is hardly moot. It is the order in every solar system and the discovery of ours led to a host of other discoveries, etc. A GPS system launched assuming the earth is stationary will soon be out of synch, or never in synch (see http://avionicswest.com/Articles/howGPSworks.html--emphasis mine):

Satellite orbits are best described in a fixed Inertial reference system with one axis perpendicular to the plane of the orbit around the sun. In this system the earth spins on its axis and orbits the sun. Perturbations to satellite orbits in this reference frame can be calculated and observed. But your position on earth is referenced to an Earth Centered coordinate system, assuming a fixed polar axis, so changes in orbits in the Inertial system must be translated to the Earth system by a coordinate transformation. This transformation changes in time because, among other things, the earth wobbles (about 9 m motion of the pole), and over a much slower time the polar axis itself changes its location (within about a 5 m circle).​

But GPS doesn't feed the hungry or clothe the naked or heal the sick, or raise its voice for the widow and orphan. Some GPS phenomena was cited as evidence against the special theory of relativity*, which, if falsified, means that the luminiferous ether (which is asserted in the General theory, though of a different nature) may exist, and if it does exist, The Michelson-Morley experiment failed to detect it, which would mean the earth is stationary.

*https://www.ion.org/publications/abstract.cfm?articleID=754
I am intrigued though. Were the results and conclusions in the paper you cited duplicated and verified? According to others, relativity is included in GPS system calculations: http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html.

Technology is generally neutral; it can be used for good or evil. Are you claiming GPS is never used to aid those doing good? Do they never use predictive weather reports?

Still, the earth is not stationary, even if it’s approximately central to the universe.

Thanks for the cordial discussion. It's been most illuminating.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Heliocentricity is hardly moot. It is the order in every solar system and the discovery of ours led to a host of other discoveries, etc. A GPS system launched assuming the earth is stationary will soon be out of synch, or never in synch (see http://avionicswest.com/Articles/howGPSworks.html--emphasis mine):

Satellite orbits are best described in a fixed Inertial reference system with one axis perpendicular to the plane of the orbit around the sun. In this system the earth spins on its axis and orbits the sun. Perturbations to satellite orbits in this reference frame can be calculated and observed. But your position on earth is referenced to an Earth Centered coordinate system, assuming a fixed polar axis, so changes in orbits in the Inertial system must be translated to the Earth system by a coordinate transformation. This transformation changes in time because, among other things, the earth wobbles (about 9 m motion of the pole), and over a much slower time the polar axis itself changes its location (within about a 5 m circle).​

I am intrigued though. Were the results and conclusions in the paper you cited duplicated and verified? According to others, relativity is included in GPS system calculations: http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html.

Technology is generally neutral; it can be used for good or evil. Are you claiming GPS is never used to aid those doing good? Do they never use predictive weather reports?
I haven't studies the nuances of these things and am not likely to. What I've been told is settled science is arguable and based on arbitrary assumptions, and the systems are still being studied and tweaked because of predictions that haven't panned out.

Still, the earth is not stationary, even if it’s approximately central to the universe.
Maybe, maybe not. You can't know. The bottom line is this: Even if it is moving, a universe with a center and an edge is not allowable, and it is rejected solely on philosophical grounds, because observations of astronomers put us in close proximity to that center and that implies purpose and design, and that is a most unwelcome implication.

Thanks for the cordial discussion. It's been most illuminating.
:Thumbsup
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
The enemies of heliocentricity were not arguing for or against some modern relativistic theory. The sun rising and setting has nothing to do with relativity. It is a matter of whether the earth rotates in its solar orbit or the sun orbits the earth. It’s the former, not the latter. Case closed.
It has everything to do with relativity. You've asserted the truth is otherwise, so saying the sun rises is relative terminology. So when Christ said His Father causes His sun to rise, if the truth is that God's earth is rotating:

1) Christ is describing the phenomenon in relative terms.
2) Christ was ignorant of the motion of the earth, like his Apostles and ministers in the following years
3) Christ knowingly perpetuated a fallacious notion to make a theological point.

Those are the only possibilities. I can't imagine we know something that Christ did not. To, me, the Truth would never perpetuate a falsehood. So if the earth is rotating, and the sun isn't really rising, the Relativity is the truth, and we know God prefers an earth-centered coordinate plane.

However, ad hominem attacks are common, and to be expected. The quote of your daughter leaves it ambiguous. Arrest whom, Luther or Galileo? They opposed, arrested, and tried them both.;)
Galileo.

But the stories are told, because 'heliocentricity' puts God's revelation on the defensive. All efforts to explain the geocentric language of the Bible sound contrived and shallow. That is the main thrust of it.

The Grand Poobahs of cosmology explicitly state that the heliocentric and geocentric models contain no truth value, as if one model is obviously true and the other is not. That's not the case. Both models can be assumed to be true with equal justification.
 
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