Not wanting derail this different thread here. Just read what I wrote there. I alluded to Paul's writing, two different verses, I think.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Interesting Quote
- Thread starter asterisktom
- Start date
Not wanting derail this different thread here. Just read what I wrote there. I alluded to Paul's writing, two different verses, I think.
Isaiah 65:17-25 posted so that the readers may certainly see the truth:
Typical of the prophets, they see the establishment of the Millennium blending into that of the final eternal estate of all who believe.
For comparison of how this passage is to be constructed in a timeline fashion one cannot neglect the final chapters of the Revelation in which give the timeline of events leading up to the millennium, the final judgement of nations, the new heaven and earth, the wiping away of tears, the new Jerusalem, and that great final plea of all believers from the time of the apostles, "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."
There is no remaking of the old earth into a new, nor the old heaven into a new.
Just as in salvation, the old wine skins cannot contain that which God has created for the believers. "Behold, I make all things new" (Rev. 21:5) is the promise of not merely a new body for believers, but the whole of creation.
Those who would make that future hope as present trouble waiting to be in some manner remade into that future heavenly abode are not consistent with the Scriptures.
17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
18“But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
19“I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
20“No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
21“They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22“They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
23“They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD,
And their descendants with them.
24“It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25“The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
18“But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
19“I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
20“No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
21“They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22“They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
23“They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD,
And their descendants with them.
24“It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25“The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.
Typical of the prophets, they see the establishment of the Millennium blending into that of the final eternal estate of all who believe.
For comparison of how this passage is to be constructed in a timeline fashion one cannot neglect the final chapters of the Revelation in which give the timeline of events leading up to the millennium, the final judgement of nations, the new heaven and earth, the wiping away of tears, the new Jerusalem, and that great final plea of all believers from the time of the apostles, "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."
There is no remaking of the old earth into a new, nor the old heaven into a new.
Just as in salvation, the old wine skins cannot contain that which God has created for the believers. "Behold, I make all things new" (Rev. 21:5) is the promise of not merely a new body for believers, but the whole of creation.
Those who would make that future hope as present trouble waiting to be in some manner remade into that future heavenly abode are not consistent with the Scriptures.
They do now and will continue until the millennial reign, followed by that final judgement and then just as Revelation 21 states:
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
And is that it? No bodily resurrection? And the earth goes on and on, perhaps, with wars and fightings and murders and adulteries forever . . . but maybe not? Maybe eventually death and sickness is gone and men live forever in peace and righteousness, it's hard to say?
Real question. Just wanting to know how you're thinking.
I know it is a real question, not trying to set me up or anything.
A bodily resurrection of Christ was essential for our salvation, so that Christ would evidently be Lord of all. But He does not need a physical body now. Neither will we.
Neither did He throughout eternity past.
I have to leave. Will,come back later
Charles Spurgeon, quoted by Evangelist John L. Bray in his sermon
A "HEAVEN AND EARTH SHALL PASS AWAY" [LINK]
If I may add my own questions,
In your view, will this Earth continue to add to the heavenly host into infinite?
Then at least point me to the thread and the post number.
While I agreed, this needs qualification.
Right now it is storming here in Panama and the Internet is spotty. Will return later.
Unless your view has changed, your "qualification" would fall outside the parameters in which the witness of John starting in Revelation 18 will allow.
One is faced with either accepting the time line of the last four chapters of the Revelation as accurately presented by John, or they must call into question all statements of the Scriptures as perhaps inaccurately presented, even those presented concerning the birth, ministry, death and resurrection of the Christ.
Not according to Scriptures.
There is no redemption to the present earth and heaven - they pass away.
An unspoiled place unseen and untouched by evil nor that father of lies is being created for us which is stated as a fact by the declaration of Christ and by vision in the final two chapters of the Revelation by John.
The OT prophets only had a small glimpse of one side of this landscape, but the believers now benefit from viewing the total panorama as the prophets and angels could only desire to look into but were somewhat given only small glints in reflection.
Of course He is addressing heaven and earth. He is calling the whole Universe to witness against Israel. The stars keep to their paths, the planets to their orbits; the earth keeps revolving on its axis and circling the sun. They are obeying the laws of their Creator. And so they witness against God's own people, a part of His creation who have rebelled against Him. Why would He summon Israel to witness against Israel?
If you have a problem with this, consider Joshua 24:27, where a stone is made a witness against Israel. Is 'stone' a code word for Israel?See also Isaiah
Well spookily enough, I preached on Isaiah 51 just a few weeks ago. God's address is not to Israel as a whole, but to His N.T. people (c.f. Isaiah 51:1, 7). The whole section from Chapters 40-55, although Cyrus has a bit part, is about Christ. It is to Christ that verse 16 is spoken; who was not revealed until the due time (Galatians 4:4), but who has redeemed Zion-- not Jerusalem below, but the Jerusalem above which is the mother of all Christians (Galatians 4:26) and will descend from heaven at the end of time (Revelation 21:2). "'My people' is the ultimate fulfilment of God's covenant promise in Exodus 6:7" (Alec Motyer).
You are supposing that they are concurrent, but there is no evidence for that. Verse 17 begins a new section. @agedman has shown you the context of verses 17-25.
Thumb typing on a phone so I will be brief.Of course He is addressing heaven and earth. He is calling the whole Universe to witness against Israel. The stars keep to their paths, the planets to their orbits; the earth keeps revolving on its axis and circling the sun. They are obeying the laws of their Creator. And so they witness against God's own people, a part of His creation who have rebelled against Him. Why would He summon Israel to witness against Israel?
See also Isaiah
Well spookily enough, I preached on Isaiah 51 just a few weeks ago. God's address is not to Israel as a whole, but to His N.T. people (c.f. Isaiah 51:1, 7). The whole section from Chapters 40-55, although Cyrus has a bit part, is about Christ. It is to Christ that verse 16 is spoken; who was not revealed until the due time (Galatians 4:4), but who has redeemed Zion-- not Jerusalem below, but the Jerusalem above which is the mother of all Christians (Galatians 4:26) and will descend from heaven at the end of time (Revelation 21:2). "'My people' is the ultimate fulfilment of God's covenant promise in Exodus 6:7" (Alec Motyer).
You are supposing that they are concurrent, but there is no evidence for that. Verse 17 begins a new section. @agedman has shown you the context of verses 17-25.
Agedman has not shown me the context, but how he ignores the context to suit his presupposition And you, also, imagine a division or break just before the NH verse for a similar reason. A plain reading of the text - noting specially the "for" - would make the unbiased reader see them all as grouped together.
Verse 17 is an explanation of those things that God brought to pass in the previous verses.
???
People certainly can be witnesses against themselves. Several verses come to my mind.
Read Deuteronomy 4:26 & 30:19. It is utterly ridiculous to suggest that 'heaven and earth' is some sort of code word for Israel. You are making a fool of yourself.
Well, either you see it or you don't. I am not going to trade insults with you.
The 'for' shows the continuity of thought, but by no means requires the same time-line. Isaiah 65:17-25 describe the NH & NE, and they bear no resemblance to the world today. Today many Christians are living in conditions of slavery in Pakistan and elsewhere, contra vs. 21-22, and infant mortality for Christians is no better for Christians than for others (v.20)
Yes, that is my understanding. I could be wrong but I have not seen a passage that would teach otherwise.
But God is not obligated to tell us everything future, like that verse in Deut. tells us - secret things belong to Him.
Moreover, intriguingly, we do have the things spoken by the Seven Thunders that John was forbidden to write down.
I'm sure you weren't taught this is VBS. What was the one thing that convinced you? I know there will be more than one, but if you're like a normal man, you considered multiple things and one thing made them fall into place.
For instance, my true and complete surrender to (what is called) Calvinism came when I was mowing one very hot and humid day, struggling with doubts and fears and Ephesians 2:8 was brought to mind.
What convinced you of your position?