Baptist Covenant Theology

[Mikey]

Hello,

I have been reading some books of 1689 federalism and CT from the view of Presbyterians(Prebs)which some Reformed Baptists (RB)also seem to follow(one covenant , two administrations). My question is do the RB view it exactly the same or do they differ on some aspect, for they obviously come to different conclusions on Baptism.

For example. Prebs state that circumcision and Baptism are in substance the same, since in OT it was given to children so now it must also be given to children in the NT, otherwise there are continuity issues between the same Covenant of Grace.

How do Baptists deal with these allegations?

Also any recommended books or articles that deal with this issue?

Thanks

 

[rsr]

There's a website on covenantal theology from the perspective of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession that contrasts Baptist covenantalism with Presbyterian covenantalism:

http://www.1689federalism.com/

A treatment of the differences in Presbyterian and Baptist covenantalism with respect to baptism is at:

http://www.placefortruth.org/content/case-credobaptism-0

 

[Mikey]

There's a website on covenantal theology from the perspective of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession that contrasts Baptist covenantalism with Presbyterian covenantalism:

http://www.1689federalism.com/

A treatment of the differences in Presbyterian and Baptist covenantalism with respect to baptism is at:

http://www.placefortruth.org/content/case-credobaptism-0

hey,

Thanks for the info. However both are promoting 1689 federalism( which have a different CT- eg only the New covenant is the covenant of Grace) am looking for are material relating to Baptists - what sometimes referred to as modern or 20th century Reformed Baptist- who hold the same CT as the Presbyterians ( OT and NT are the covenant of Grace but under different administrations.

Thanks

 

[Martin Marprelate]

hey,

Thanks for the info. However both are promoting 1689 federalism( which have a different CT- eg only the New covenant is the covenant of Grace) am looking for are material relating to Baptists - what sometimes referred to as modern or 20th century Reformed Baptist- who hold the same CT as the Presbyterians ( OT and NT are the covenant of Grace but under different administrations.

Thanks

Do you mean those who believe that the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant are one, yet hold to Believers' Baptism?
I've been told that John Gill held to that, but I've never heard of '20th Century Reformed Baptists.'

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you mean those who believe that the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant are one, yet hold to Believers' Baptism?
I've been told that John Gill held to that, but I've never heard of '20th Century Reformed Baptists.'

Most, like myself, would seem to view the Mosaic Covenant as being one primarily of conditional status, as how they obeyed God merited to them Hi spromised health and wealth blessings!

 

[Yeshua1]

Hello,

I have been reading some books of 1689 federalism and CT from the view of Presbyterians(Prebs)which some Reformed Baptists (RB)also seem to follow(one covenant , two administrations). My question is do the RB view it exactly the same or do they differ on some aspect, for they obviously come to different conclusions on Baptism.

For example. Prebs state that circumcision and Baptism are in substance the same, since in OT it was given to children so now it must also be given to children in the NT, otherwise there are continuity issues between the same Covenant of Grace.

How do Baptists deal with these allegations?

Also any recommended books or articles that deal with this issue?

Thanks

The big difference would be where they see the Church founded, and if the Covenant of Grace was just a carried over into the NT, or was a brand new Covenant!

 

[Mikey]

Do you mean those who believe that the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant are one, yet hold to Believers' Baptism?
I've been told that John Gill held to that, but I've never heard of '20th Century Reformed Baptists.'

Hey,

Yes i'm looking for information on Reformed Baptist who hold to the " One covenant, two administrations" idea. That the covenant of Grace was instituted straight after the fall, and includes the covenants with Abraham, Moses, David etc. I'm particularly interested in how RB are able to hold Believers baptism within this CT.

As I understand the reason '20th Century Reformed Baptists' is used because at this time Baptists began adopting this CT rather than what is referred to as 1689 federalism, as previously 1689 was largely forgotten and many Baptist had adopted Dispensationalism or Arminianism. This seems to explain why theres no books on 1689 federalism from the 1950s for example and only recently beginning to be rediscovered

 

[Yeshua1]

Hey,

Yes i'm looking for information on Reformed Baptist who hold to the " One covenant, two administrations" idea. That the covenant of Grace was instituted straight after the fall, and includes the covenants with Abraham, Moses, David etc. I'm particularly interested in how RB are able to hold Believers baptism within this CT.

As I understand the reason '20th Century Reformed Baptists' is used because at this time Baptists began adopting this CT rather than what is referred to as 1689 federalism, as previously 1689 was largely forgotten and many Baptist had adopted Dispensationalism or Arminianism. This seems to explain why theres no books on 1689 federalism from the 1950s for example and only recently beginning to be rediscovered

The believers baptist would be due to us seeing the new Covenant as a new one, that only those actually in it are qualified to be baptized. Others see it as basically a continuation of the OC, but expanded/enlarged, hence infant baptism.

 

[Mikey]

The believers baptist would be due to us seeing the new Covenant as a new one, that only those actually in it are qualified to be baptized. Others see it as basically a continuation of the OC, but expanded/enlarged, hence infant baptism.

Hey,

So there are no Baptists who hold to the 'One Covenant, Two administrations' CT?
At the start of this Video he mentions different Reformed Baptists?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hey,

Yes i'm looking for information on Reformed Baptist who hold to the " One covenant, two administrations" idea. That the covenant of Grace was instituted straight after the fall, and includes the covenants with Abraham, Moses, David etc. I'm particularly interested in how RB are able to hold Believers baptism within this CT.

As I understand the reason '20th Century Reformed Baptists' is used because at this time Baptists began adopting this CT rather than what is referred to as 1689 federalism, as previously 1689 was largely forgotten and many Baptist had adopted Dispensationalism or Arminianism. This seems to explain why theres no books on 1689 federalism from the 1950s for example and only recently beginning to be rediscovered

You are right that Baptist Covenant Theology was largely forgotten for most of the 20th Century, and you are right about the reasons.
I recommend The Divine Covenants by A.W. Pink as a good pre-war book about Covenant Theology. The 1689 Federalism guys claim him for their own, but Pink always seems to plough his own furrow. You can find the book on line as well as in print (Pietan Publications).

Apparently the term 'Reformed Baptist' was first coined by Walt Chantry and Geoff Thomas in the 1960s when they were students together at Westminster Seminary.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hey,

So there are no Baptists who hold to the 'One Covenant, Two administrations' CT?
At the start of this Video he mentions different Reformed Baptists?

I hold to there being the Covenant of Grace since the fall of Adam being in place, under different adminstrations, Davidic, Mosaic, Abrahamiac etc, but that the New Covenant itself was not in place until Jesus died and ascended on high.

 

[Mikey]

I hold to there being the Covenant of Grace since the fall of Adam being in place, under different adminstrations, Davidic, Mosaic, Abrahamiac etc, but that the New Covenant itself was not in place until Jesus died and ascended on high.

Hey,

Interesting. Would you consider that the New Covenant is a "new covenant" or a new administration?

 

[Yeshua1]

Hey,

Interesting. Would you consider that the New Covenant is a "new covenant" or a new administration?

This is where reformed Presbytarians and Baptists depart, as I see it as a New Covenant, esablished by the blood/death of Christ!

 

[Mikey]

This is where reformed Presbytarians and Baptists depart, as I see it as a New Covenant, esablished by the blood/death of Christ!

yes indeed. My understanding of 1689 federalism seem slightly different from yours, that the New Covenant is the covenant of Grace, which none of the OT covenants where under but they were saved through the promise of the New Covenament (Christs Death and resurrection) through faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

yes indeed. My understanding of 1689 federalism seem slightly different from yours, that the New Covenant is the covenant of Grace, which none of the OT covenants where under but they were saved through the promise of the New Covenament (Christs Death and resurrection) through faith.

I see this as Covenant Baptist, so there are but Covenant of works, and then the One of Grace,but that the New One is when it got fully implemented and arrived here.
We are now under a superior Covenant, as now have all spiritual blessings in Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I hold to there being the Covenant of Grace since the fall of Adam being in place, under different adminstrations, Davidic, Mosaic, Abrahamiac etc, but that the New Covenant itself was not in place until Jesus died and ascended on high.

I don't see the Abrahamic or Davidic covenants as being administrations. No one seems to have been 'in' or 'under' the Abrahamic covenant except Abraham and also Isaac and Jacob who received the covenant separately (Genesis 26:2-5; 28:13-14). No one except these three is ever described as being in the Abrahamic covenant (c.f. Exodus 2:24 etc.). These are covenants of promise.

I wrote a series of articles about the covenants on my blog many years ago. the first one can be found here:
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/09/05/the-covenants-part-1-the-covenant-of-works/ If anyone reads them he will find that they owe a lot to the A.W. Pink book I recommended above.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hey,

Mikey, welcome to the B.B. I hope you have a great time here.
Why don't you go to the 'Introductions' forum and tell us a bit about yourself?

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't see the Abrahamic or Davidic covenants as being administrations. No one seems to have been 'in' or 'under' the Abrahamic covenant except Abraham and also Isaac and Jacob who received the covenant separately (Genesis 26:2-5; 28:13-14). No one except these three is ever described as being in the Abrahamic covenant (c.f. Exodus 2:24 etc.). These are covenants of promise.

I wrote a series of articles about the covenants on my blog many years ago. the first one can be found here:
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/09/05/the-covenants-part-1-the-covenant-of-works/ If anyone reads them he will find that they owe a lot to the A.W. Pink book I recommended above.

The Abrahamic covenant extended forward, as we are now all hiers to God thru faith faith in jesus, just as He was, correct?

 

[Mikey]

I know its been awhile but rather than start another thread i'll just continue this.
I came across a diagram (admittedly limited) that shows what I was referring to in the OP. Does anyone have any information on the '20th Century Baptists' ? There's plenty on 1689 Federalism but can't find anything on the other.

 

[Jerome]

Does anyone have any information

This article and this video clarify just who the "20th Century Reformed Baptists" faction is (those who were overly influenced by Presbyterian ideas, and historically ignorant of Baptist teaching on the subject):

contrast2.wordpress.com/2017/04/14/some-comments-on-john-gills-covenant-theology/

"The reason '20th century' was used is because it described a view that arose in the 20th century largely without any influence from historic baptist covenant theology...When confessional baptist theology was recovered...in the 20th century, it was nursed primarily by Westminster Theological Seminary (notably John Murray) and the Banner of Truth (which did not reprint historic baptist works on covenant theology). As a result, baptists attempted to construct a covenant theology while wearing 'Presbyterian glasses' (though they were still obvious critical of various aspects)....When we say this, we are not necessarily talking about all baptists everywhere in the 20th century....We are referring specifically to an influential group of pastors who helped lead and educate other reformed baptists (such as Walt Chantry, Samuel Waldron, Fred Malone, Earl Blackburn, etc)."