New Evidence for the Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin

[Deadworm]

In my view this posted video is the most thrilling and faith inspiring video ever posted on the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...D7AE9063394E8B1A66FAD7AE9063394E8B1&FORM=VIRE

7 facts stand out for me about the most recent Shroud of Turin research:
(1) Shroud fragments tested by C-14 dating have been scientifically shown to be a later Medieval repair job.
(2) Other independent dating techniques have dated the Shroud to a range that includes Jesus' crucifixion.
(3) Both the rare blood type AB and the blood spatter pattern are the same on both the Shroud and the Soudarion of Oviedo (Jesus' face cloth). But that face cloth was brought from Jerusalem to Spain around 400 AD. So that already shatters the alleged medieval date of the Shroud.
(4) Israeli fabric experts have demonstrated that ancient Hebrew measurements (Hebrew cubits) and composition requirements were meticulously used to satisfy ancient Jewish standards for the Shroud.
(5) The Shroud contains pollen from plants unique to the Palestine region.
(6) Scientists can't explain how the image on the Shroud was created, but it shows all the signs of having covered a body tortured by a Roman flagrum and then crucified.
(7) The Shroud's image seems to have been created by an unknow radiation source (not by a burn). I'm thrilled by the possibility that this radiation many have been produced by the act of bodily Resurrection!

 

[Yeshua1]

In my view this posted video is the most thrilling and faith inspiring video ever posted on the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...D7AE9063394E8B1A66FAD7AE9063394E8B1&FORM=VIRE

7 facts stand out for me about the most recent Shroud of Turin research:
(1) Shroud fragments tested by C-14 dating have been scientifically shown to be a later Medieval repair job.
(2) Other independent dating techniques have dated the Shroud to a range that includes Jesus' crucifixion.
(3) Both the rare blood type AB and the blood spatter pattern are the same on both the Shroud and the Soudarion of Oviedo (Jesus' face cloth). But that face cloth was brought from Jerusalem to Spain around 400 AD. So that already shatters the alleged medieval date of the Shroud.
(4) Israeli fabric experts have demonstrated that ancient Hebrew measurements (Hebrew cubits) and composition requirements were meticulously used to satisfy ancient Jewish standards for the Shroud.
(5) The Shroud contains pollen from plants unique to the Palestine region.
(6) Scientists can't explain how the image on the Shroud was created, but it shows all the signs of having covered a body tortured by a Roman flagellum and then crucified.
(7) The Shroud's image seems to have been created by an unknow radiation source (not by a burn). I'm thrilled by the possibility that this radiation many have been produced by the act of bodily Resurrection!

https://phys.org › Other Sciences › Other
Best evidence for the resurrection, and ONLY proof, is found in the Gospel themselves!

 

[agedman]

Some seek among the dead, while I seek the living Christ.

"He is not here, He has risen," is reason enough not to need to look at some long dead artifact that is worthless and certainly is not "faith inspiring."

"Faith inspiring" is only done by the Scriptures being preached as the work of the Holy Spirit takes place using the Scriptures.

 

[Deadworm]

https://phys.org › Other Sciences › Other
Best evidence for the resurrection, and ONLY proof, is found in the Gospel themselves!

Academically trained Bible scholars are unanimous in their consensus that our Gospels offer no "proof" of Jesus' resurrection. In fact, the Gospel resurrection narratives are riddled with inconsistencies that prompt many scholars to dismiss the reports as all legends. Eventually I intend to start a thread that outlines all the apparent contradictions and then seeks to reconcile them in a historical reconstruction that allows the Gospel record to retain credibility. The discipline of Christian apologetics needs every available source of evidence to support the Gospel witness to the resurrection. The shroud has convinced some who dismiss the Gospel evidence as rubbish. For that very reason and because Christians should revere the atoning blood of Jesus, the Shroud should be viewed as incalculably precious to honest Christian seekers. As already noted, the Shroud's image seems to have been made by radiation (but not by heat) and scientists speculate that this image may well have been made by the actual miracle of the resurrection event. what a thrilling and faith-inspiring thought!

I note once again that you pontificate from ignorance and have not even bothered to watch the video to see just how compelling it is. Other posters on this site marvel at your closed-mindedness.

 

[Yeshua1]

Academically trained Bible scholars are unanimous in their consensus that our Gospels offer no "proof" of Jesus' resurrection. In fact, the Gospel resurrection narratives are riddled with inconsistencies that prompt many scholars to dismiss the reports as all legends. Eventually I intend to start a thread that outlines all the apparent contradictions and then seeks to reconcile them in a historical reconstruction that allows the Gospel record to retain credibility. The discipline of Christian apologetics needs every available source of evidence to support the Gospel witness to the resurrection. The shroud has convinced some who dismiss the Gospel evidence as rubbish. For that very reason and because Christians should revere the atoning blood of Jesus, the Shroud should be viewed as incalculably precious to honest Christian seekers. As already noted, the Shroud's image seems to have been made by radiation (but not by heat) and scientists speculate that this image may well have been made by the actual miracle of the resurrection event. what a thrilling and faith-inspiring thought!

I note once again that you pontificate from ignorance and have not even bothered to watch the video to see just how compelling it is. Other posters on this site marvel at your closed-mindedness.

You should have stated it as those so called scholars tarined at liberal/critical schools, who deny that the scriptures are fully inspired by god, and are trustworthy in all that they affirm!
Your theology comes from Jesus Seminar, and not from reputable scholars!

 

[Deadworm]

Yeshua: "Your theology comes from Jesus Seminar, and not from reputable scholars."

An ignorant, false, and presumptuous accusation leveled by someone who has little or no contact with modern published reputable Bible scholars, in contrast to myself who has been in regular contact with them at annual meetings of the Society of Biblical Literature, other learned Bible conferences, and professors at both liberal and solidly evangelical seminaries!

You are the poster boy for Jesus' portrait of a presumptuous judgmental spirit. Though I have academic colleagues in the Jesus' Seminar, I myself am a devout evangelical apologist who recognizes the need to honestly acknowledge the troublesome issues that really matter as a foundation for mounting an effective Christ-honoring counter-argument in defense of the Gospel. Your closed-mindedness illustrates why many honest seekers shun the Gospel because of what they rightly perceive as an intellectual dishonesty that they find abhorrent.

The new evidence for the Shroud's authenticity has revived the faith of many disillusioned seekers and has brought glory to Christ's name. Also apologetically helpful is the Nazareth tablet authorized by either Emperor Tiberias or Claudius that pronounces the death penalty on grave robbers. The normal Roman penalty for grave robbing was a stiff fine, but this tablet has in mind the claims of Jesus' disciples that the empty tomb indicates Jesus' bodily resurrection. As such, it has apologetic value because it demonstrates that the Romans had not idea what happened to Jesus' corpse and because it helps refute the skeptics'; view that Roman soldiers removed Jesus' corpse after the Sabbath ended and followed the standard Roman policy of dumping it in an unmarked pit with the 2 thieves on the cross. On this view, when Jesus' followers found the tomb empty, they wrongly concluded that Jesus had risen bodily from the dead. Such efforts to explain away the empty tomb are refuted by the Nazareth tablet.

Yeshua: "You should have stated it as those so called scholars trained at liberal/critical schools, who deny that the scriptures are fully inspired by god, and are trustworthy in all that they affirm!"

The problematic inconsistencies of the Gospel resurrection narratives are universally recognized by evangelical and mainstream Bible scholars alike. Some of these scholars reject the historicity of ALL Gospel resurrection accounts just for that reason. Your faith is protected only by your blissful and naïve ignorance of the relevant issues and by your consistent refusal to even read posts and watch videos with evidence that disagrees with your blindly embraced pontifications. You will in for a rude shock when my proposed thread outlines these problematic inconsistencies. But fear not! I will then explore ways to harmonize them all in a narrative sequence that makes sense, removes the contradictions, and connects these stories with eyewitness testimony.

When I teach Christian apologetics, I remind students that a good apologist learns to summarize the case of his skeptic opponents more clearly, succinctly, and accurately than the opponents are capable of themselves. Most wannabe Christian apologists are ineffective because they create a bogus straw man of their opponents perspective, so they can knock it down and feel righteous. ​

 

[tyndale1946]

In my view this posted video is the most thrilling and faith inspiring video ever posted on the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...D7AE9063394E8B1A66FAD7AE9063394E8B1&FORM=VIRE

7 facts stand out for me about the most recent Shroud of Turin research:
(1) Shroud fragments tested by C-14 dating have been scientifically shown to be a later Medieval repair job.
(2) Other independent dating techniques have dated the Shroud to a range that includes Jesus' crucifixion.
(3) Both the rare blood type AB and the blood spatter pattern are the same on both the Shroud and the Soudarion of Oviedo (Jesus' face cloth). But that face cloth was brought from Jerusalem to Spain around 400 AD. So that already shatters the alleged medieval date of the Shroud.
(4) Israeli fabric experts have demonstrated that ancient Hebrew measurements (Hebrew cubits) and composition requirements were meticulously used to satisfy ancient Jewish standards for the Shroud.
(5) The Shroud contains pollen from plants unique to the Palestine region.
(6) Scientists can't explain how the image on the Shroud was created, but it shows all the signs of having covered a body tortured by a Roman flagrum and then crucified.
(7) The Shroud's image seems to have been created by an unknow radiation source (not by a burn). I'm thrilled by the possibility that this radiation many have been produced by the act of bodily Resurrection!

You have to understand something I am a Baptist and all though the evidence is very compelling... Btw I watched the whole thing... It doesn't matter to me... Jesus is not here, like one other brother pointed out... The risen living Jesus Christ is sitting on the right hand of God on his throne now making intercession for his children... Believers do not need to be shown Jesus Christ burial cloth to believe nor the empty tomb... I have been walking with Christ over 50 years and my heart and soul was change by the Jesus Christ not the cloth... Hearing the story again makes me appreciate with words I cannot express what the Lord has done for me, in my life, who I will joyfully thank personally when I see him... Brother Glen

 

[agedman]

An ignorant, false, and presumptuous accusation leveled by someone who has little or no contact with modern published reputable Bible scholars, in contrast to myself who has been in regular contact with them at annual meetings of the Society of Biblical Literature, other learned Bible conferences, and professors at both liberal and solidly evangelical seminaries!

"Solidly evangelical seminaries" does not equate that they are doctrinally solid, and certainly the "liberal" ones long ago sold out to modernism, which is exactly what you bring by stating:

The problematic inconsistencies of the Gospel resurrection narratives are universally recognized by evangelical and mainstream Bible scholars alike. Some of these scholars reject the historicity of ALL Gospel resurrection accounts just for that reason. ​

Rejection of the Gospel accounts is exactly the typical modernist thinking of the "liberal and evangelical seminaries." They have ALWAYS brought discredit to the Scripture accounts in some manner. It is that which is part of their ungodliness.

You, by representation, are in agreement with them and therefor are also of little credible stature in the Scriptures much less honoring the validity of the Scripture accounts. This is why historically such must rely upon relics, and signs, rather than that faith once delivered. They are one who claim to be alive, but are filled with apostasy.

​

When I teach Christian apologetics, I remind students that a good apologist learns to summarize the case of his skeptic opponents more clearly, succinctly, and accurately than the opponents are capable of themselves. Most wannabe Christian apologists are ineffective because they create a bogus straw man of their opponents perspective, so they can knock it down and feel righteous. ​

Your credentials may qualify you as a teacher, but there is little evidence shown of teaching ability. I taught and worked for years around folks who conducted themselves as you state, and I can count on one hand the impact the students have to this day. Most of the students who adopted thinking as you present live shipwrecked lives of hallow value. Such are as one now passed called Gene Scott. Intelligent, educated, but without the work of the Holy Spirit, of little value but an example to shun. Such poof up themselves as an expert, mock what they do not comprehend and are as the neighbors field in the Texas heat, dry and worthless. Tell me not of your own ability, but what of the students that have passed under your instruction. Who have they become. What manner of life have they lived, and is that living a testimony of value to the Living Savior?
​

The new evidence for the Shroud's authenticity has revived the faith of many disillusioned seekers and has brought glory to Christ's name. Also apologetically helpful is the Nazareth tablet authorized by either Emperor Tiberias or Claudius that pronounces the death penalty on grave robbers. The normal Roman penalty for grave robbing was a stiff fine, but this tablet has in mind the claims of Jesus' disciples that the empty tomb indicates Jesus' bodily resurrection. As such, it has apologetic value because it demonstrates that the Romans had not idea what happened to Jesus' corpse and because it helps refute the skeptics'; view that Roman soldiers removed Jesus' corpse after the Sabbath ended and followed the standard Roman policy of dumping it in an unmarked pit with the 2 thieves on the cross. On this view, when Jesus' followers found the tomb empty, they wrongly concluded that Jesus had risen bodily from the dead. Such efforts to explain away the empty tomb are refuted by the Nazareth tablet.

There is just so little agreement with the Scriptures in what you wrote, but it is all pure speculation and unsupported myth of which the centuries are filled. Such ungodliness and ungodly presentation does not bear the testimony of the Christ living in that person nor is the scholarship worthy of note to the common believer, but the misguided intellectuals who perish will thrive on it thinking that it is an excuse.

The world and worldly seek signs and must rely upon mystic fables.

Believers have that witness within them of the truth.

Where is the testimony you have of such a witness in your own core of who you are?

 

[Deadworm]

You have to understand something I am a Baptist and all though the evidence is very compelling... Btw I watched the whole thing... It doesn't matter to me... Jesus is not here, like one other brother pointed out... The risen living Jesus Christ is sitting on the right hand of God on his throne now making intercession for his children... Believers do not need to be shown Jesus Christ burial cloth to believe nor the empty tomb... I have been walking with Christ over 50 years and my heart and soul was change by the Jesus Christ not the cloth... Hearing the story again makes me appreciate with words I cannot express what the Lord has done for me, in my life, who I will joyfully thank personally when I see him... Brother Glen

Why do you assume that this thread is motivated by a desire to convince already committed Christians of Christ's resurrection? Why do you trivialize an effective evangelistic tool that opens skeptical hearts to the possibility of Christ's resurrection, hearts that previously dismissed the Gospel witness as legendary? To be an effective witness is to be alert to what opens unbelieving hearts to the Gospel. But it seems that some posters here are far more interested in feeling "right" about their own faith rationales than they are about seeking out ways tht help persuade the lost about the redemptive significance of Christ's death and resurrection.

I can only conclude that some posters here don't love Christ enough to treasure the thought of what He actually looked like. As for me, I treasure the possibility of Jesus appearing as He really looks: "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing (1 Timothy 4:8)."

The first 10+ minutes of this shorter video eloquently makes the case that the soudarion (= face cloth) of Jesus at Oviedo in Spain was the cloth referred to in John 20:4-6):

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...B216A750D08734361C6AB216A750D087343&FORM=VIRE

 

[Deadworm]

Agedman: "Rejection of the Gospel accounts is exactly the typical modernist thinking of the "liberal and evangelical seminaries." They have ALWAYS brought discredit to the Scripture accounts in some manner. It is that which is part of their ungodliness."

Just the opposite is the truth. Naïve believers like yourself put your head in the sand and ignore the apparent inconsistences in the NT's resurrection stories that cause seekers to reject the Gospel. Evangelical seminaries and apologists like myself have a passion for souls great enough to wade into Bible difficulties that create stumbling blocks for faith to discover answers that are useful in winning the lost to Christ.

Agedman: "You, by representation, are in agreement with them and therefore are also of little credible stature in the Scriptures much less honoring the validity of the Scripture accounts. This is why historically such must rely upon relics, and signs, rather than that faith once delivered. They are one who claim to be alive, but are filled with apostasy."

How presumptuously judgmental, ignorant, and absurd! The apparently inconsistencies are recognized by every Bible scholar, fundamentalist and liberal alike. What I take seriously is the need to first acknowledge these difficulties and then solve them in a way that removes barriers to faith. In other words, unlike yourself, I take seriously Peter's admonition in 1 Peter 3:15:
"Always be ready to make a defense to anyone who demands an accounting of the hope that is in you "

 

[agedman]

Agedman: "Rejection of the Gospel accounts is exactly the typical modernist thinking of the "liberal and evangelical seminaries." They have ALWAYS brought discredit to the Scripture accounts in some manner. It is that which is part of their ungodliness."

Just the opposite is the truth. Naïve believers like yourself put your head in the sand and ignore the apparent inconsistences in the NT's resurrection stories that cause seekers to reject the Gospel. Evangelical seminaries and apologists like myself have a passion for souls great enough to wade into Bible difficulties that create stumbling blocks for faith to discover answers that are useful in winning the lost to Christ.

There are no "seekers," that is a myth and lie of the father of lies. The Scriptures state that non seek, that all have gone their own way.

IF and only IF God selects one to be redeemed will that person be given the authority (power) to become His, but there is no freedom of some to seek righteousness. Such is the presentation of both the gospels and the letters of the NT.

Agedman: "You, by representation, are in agreement with them and therefore are also of little credible stature in the Scriptures much less honoring the validity of the Scripture accounts. This is why historically such must rely upon relics, and signs, rather than that faith once delivered. They are one who claim to be alive, but are filled with apostasy."

How presumptuously judgmental, ignorant, and absurd! The apparently inconsistencies are recognized by every Bible scholar, fundamentalist and liberal alike. What I take seriously is the need to first acknowledge these difficulties and then solve them in a way that removes barriers to faith. In other words, unlike yourself, I take seriously Peter's admonition in 1 Peter 3:15:
"Always be ready to make a defense to anyone who demands an accounting of the hope that is in you "

See that is what I ask of you to do, make an accounting, but how cunning you avoid the issue.

I have no idea what contact you have had with fundamentalists dialogue, but if you find some who claim to be fundamentalists that hold to what you have stated, they are liars, and no not the truth.

Now, quit avoiding the 1 Peter 3:15 and give an accounting of the hope that is in you.

Your own statements indicate that such hope of yours is based on myths and signs, and not on the personal work of the Holy Spirit in conversion and preservation.

Your posts show you grasp at sand, and have nothing to offer but smoke and mirrors, trickery, and fable of no truth.

 

[Deadworm]

agedman: "There are no "seekers," that is a myth and lie of the father of lies. The Scriptures state that non seek, that all have gone their own way. "

Spoken like a badly misinformed Calvinist. In fact, most sinners who come to Christ come as a result of a spiritual journey and hence are seekers. My family and I have had the privilege of bringing some such seekers to Christ. How many sinners have you brought to Christ?

agedman: "See that is what I ask of you to do, make an accounting, but how cunning you avoid the issue."
Your malignant spirit forces you to prejudge someone new to this site whom you barely know. My future threads and posts will offer personal testimonies and insights that you can't imagine.

agedman: "...if you find some who claim to be fundamentalists that hold to what you have stated, they are liars, and no not the truth."

On the contrary, every serious Bible student eventually encounters problems requiring resolution such as the apparent inconsistencies of the Resurrection narrative. Only your biblical ignorance has protected you from such questions and the doubts they often create. But to be a true believer is to have the courage to doubt in an effort to better discern the truth and the evidence for it. Your sad closed-mindedness and insulation against the big bad world of modern scholarship has protected you from this, thus making you a ineffective witness to those who need guidance to overcome their barriers to faith.

Now, quit avoiding the 1 Peter 3:15 and give an accounting of the hope that is in you.

agedman: "Your own statements indicate that such hope of yours is based on myths and signs, and not on the personal work of the Holy Spirit in conversion and preservation."

You are pathetically judgmental towards someone to whom you have had limited exposure. You will have to give an account for your negative spirit. Have you even bothered to read my testimony in my "Babbling against Speaking in Tongues" thread? I have actively practiced street evangelism and have helped others perform this difficult form of evangelism. Have you? I was so hungry to learn all I could about biblical truth that I was enrolled in theological grad school programs for 13 years to help make me a more effect witness and apologist for the faith. Have you made a sacrifice even remotely close to such dedication.

I consider Joseph Smith and The Book of Mormon to be totally fraudulent. But I have more confidence in the salvation of some Mormons I have met than I have in yours or Yeshua's. These Mormons are humble and are truly grateful to their salvation by grace through faith in Christ's finished atoning work on the cross and they testify to God's miraculous power as demonstrated by His answers to their prayers and guidance in daily living. Upon hearing those testimonies, I used my influence to change the minds of our evangelical ministerial association into allowing Mormons full membership. Praise God!

Your posts show you grasp at sand, and have nothing to offer but smoke and mirrors, trickery, and fable of no truth.[/QUOTE]

 

[Deadworm]

If the Shroud is authentic, then the most important witness to its ancient preservation is its ancient
Ivenerated at Edessa in what was then eastern Syria in the era of the early church. Ancient church tradition claims that the apostle Thomas brought Christianity to Edessa and was buried there. Scholars argue that the Coptic Gospel of Thomas (114 sayings of Jesus from oral tradition) was composed at Edessa in the late first century AD. No reputable scholar claims that Thomas actually wrote this Gospel, but its origin at Edessa may attest the fact that the version of the sayings of Jesus in this Gospel originated from Thomas's witness at Edessa.

"What is not legend, nor speculation, is that the cloth, with an image of what was in the sixth century believed to be a true and miraculous facial image of Jesus, was found in the walls of the city in the sixth century. During repairs of the city walls in 525 CE, or more likely, during a Persian invasion of the city in 544 CE, the cloth was discovered where it had been concealed above one of the city gates. At the time, a church was built especially for it. It was, to the people of Edessa, the lost cloth of the legend." (quoted from http://greatshroudofturinfaq.com/Definitions/edessa.html)

Despite various scientific tests that date the Shroud to the time of Christ, to be certain we must await further Carbon-14 testing from a portion of the Shroud that has not been contaminated by a Medieval interweaving of wool in damaged parts of it. When and whether the Vatican might authorize such a new effort at authentication is unknown.

 

[Yeshua1]

Some seek among the dead, while I seek the living Christ.

"He is not here, He has risen," is reason enough not to need to look at some long dead artifact that is worthless and certainly is not "faith inspiring."

"Faith inspiring" is only done by the Scriptures being preached as the work of the Holy Spirit takes place using the Scriptures.

God would not leave to us a shroud, nor tyhe Originals, as we would tend to venerate them instead of Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua: "Your theology comes from Jesus Seminar, and not from reputable scholars."

An ignorant, false, and presumptuous accusation leveled by someone who has little or no contact with modern published reputable Bible scholars, in contrast to myself who has been in regular contact with them at annual meetings of the Society of Biblical Literature, other learned Bible conferences, and professors at both liberal and solidly evangelical seminaries!

You are the poster boy for Jesus' portrait of a presumptuous judgmental spirit. Though I have academic colleagues in the Jesus' Seminar, I myself am a devout evangelical apologist who recognizes the need to honestly acknowledge the troublesome issues that really matter as a foundation for mounting an effective Christ-honoring counter-argument in defense of the Gospel. Your closed-mindedness illustrates why many honest seekers shun the Gospel because of what they rightly perceive as an intellectual dishonesty that they find abhorrent.

The new evidence for the Shroud's authenticity has revived the faith of many disillusioned seekers and has brought glory to Christ's name. Also apologetically helpful is the Nazareth tablet authorized by either Emperor Tiberias or Claudius that pronounces the death penalty on grave robbers. The normal Roman penalty for grave robbing was a stiff fine, but this tablet has in mind the claims of Jesus' disciples that the empty tomb indicates Jesus' bodily resurrection. As such, it has apologetic value because it demonstrates that the Romans had not idea what happened to Jesus' corpse and because it helps refute the skeptics'; view that Roman soldiers removed Jesus' corpse after the Sabbath ended and followed the standard Roman policy of dumping it in an unmarked pit with the 2 thieves on the cross. On this view, when Jesus' followers found the tomb empty, they wrongly concluded that Jesus had risen bodily from the dead. Such efforts to explain away the empty tomb are refuted by the Nazareth tablet.

Yeshua: "You should have stated it as those so called scholars trained at liberal/critical schools, who deny that the scriptures are fully inspired by god, and are trustworthy in all that they affirm!"

The problematic inconsistencies of the Gospel resurrection narratives are universally recognized by evangelical and mainstream Bible scholars alike. Some of these scholars reject the historicity of ALL Gospel resurrection accounts just for that reason. Your faith is protected only by your blissful and naïve ignorance of the relevant issues and by your consistent refusal to even read posts and watch videos with evidence that disagrees with your blindly embraced pontifications. You will in for a rude shock when my proposed thread outlines these problematic inconsistencies. But fear not! I will then explore ways to harmonize them all in a narrative sequence that makes sense, removes the contradictions, and connects these stories with eyewitness testimony.

When I teach Christian apologetics, I remind students that a good apologist learns to summarize the case of his skeptic opponents more clearly, succinctly, and accurately than the opponents are capable of themselves. Most wannabe Christian apologists are ineffective because they create a bogus straw man of their opponents perspective, so they can knock it down and feel righteous. ​

Your theology is based upon extremely faulty liberal and critical foundations of theology, and you need to reject them for the good ole truth of a fully inspired scripture, and that they are fully authorative and accurate, and that Jesus is exactly whom the scripture sdeclare him to be, and that the Holy Spirit really did inspire down and recoerd to us the thoughts of God in the Bible!

 

[Yeshua1]

"Solidly evangelical seminaries" does not equate that they are doctrinally solid, and certainly the "liberal" ones long ago sold out to modernism, which is exactly what you bring by stating:

Rejection of the Gospel accounts is exactly the typical modernist thinking of the "liberal and evangelical seminaries." They have ALWAYS brought discredit to the Scripture accounts in some manner. It is that which is part of their ungodliness.

You, by representation, are in agreement with them and therefor are also of little credible stature in the Scriptures much less honoring the validity of the Scripture accounts. This is why historically such must rely upon relics, and signs, rather than that faith once delivered. They are one who claim to be alive, but are filled with apostasy.

​

Your credentials may qualify you as a teacher, but there is little evidence shown of teaching ability. I taught and worked for years around folks who conducted themselves as you state, and I can count on one hand the impact the students have to this day. Most of the students who adopted thinking as you present live shipwrecked lives of hallow value. Such are as one now passed called Gene Scott. Intelligent, educated, but without the work of the Holy Spirit, of little value but an example to shun. Such poof up themselves as an expert, mock what they do not comprehend and are as the neighbors field in the Texas heat, dry and worthless. Tell me not of your own ability, but what of the students that have passed under your instruction. Who have they become. What manner of life have they lived, and is that living a testimony of value to the Living Savior?
​

There is just so little agreement with the Scriptures in what you wrote, but it is all pure speculation and unsupported myth of which the centuries are filled. Such ungodliness and ungodly presentation does not bear the testimony of the Christ living in that person nor is the scholarship worthy of note to the common believer, but the misguided intellectuals who perish will thrive on it thinking that it is an excuse.

The world and worldly seek signs and must rely upon mystic fables.

Believers have that witness within them of the truth.

Where is the testimony you have of such a witness in your own core of who you are?

He could very well be on the jesus Seminar team, as he appears to deny both the historicity and the inspiration of the scriptures! He went to Harvard, and while might have learned Bibical hebrew/Greek, but much like a Rudolph Bultman, does not understand ands know what the scriptures really teach!

 

[Yeshua1]

If the Shroud is authentic, then the most important witness to its ancient preservation is its ancient
Ivenerated at Edessa in what was then eastern Syria in the era of the early church. Ancient church tradition claims that the apostle Thomas brought Christianity to Edessa and was buried there. Scholars argue that the Coptic Gospel of Thomas (114 sayings of Jesus from oral tradition) was composed at Edessa in the late first century AD. No reputable scholar claims that Thomas actually wrote this Gospel, but its origin at Edessa may attest the fact that the version of the sayings of Jesus in this Gospel originated from Thomas's witness at Edessa.

"What is not legend, nor speculation, is that the cloth, with an image of what was in the sixth century believed to be a true and miraculous facial image of Jesus, was found in the walls of the city in the sixth century. During repairs of the city walls in 525 CE, or more likely, during a Persian invasion of the city in 544 CE, the cloth was discovered where it had been concealed above one of the city gates. At the time, a church was built especially for it. It was, to the people of Edessa, the lost cloth of the legend." (quoted from http://greatshroudofturinfaq.com/Definitions/edessa.html)

Despite various scientific tests that date the Shroud to the time of Christ, to be certain we must await further Carbon-14 testing from a portion of the Shroud that has not been contaminated by a Medieval interweaving of wool in damaged parts of it. When and whether the Vatican might authorize such a new effort at authentication is unknown.

What else in the bible canot be trusted then? What is the Gospel message, and didi jesus really rise from the dead then?

 

[Yeshua1]

If the Shroud is authentic, then the most important witness to its ancient preservation is its ancient
Ivenerated at Edessa in what was then eastern Syria in the era of the early church. Ancient church tradition claims that the apostle Thomas brought Christianity to Edessa and was buried there. Scholars argue that the Coptic Gospel of Thomas (114 sayings of Jesus from oral tradition) was composed at Edessa in the late first century AD. No reputable scholar claims that Thomas actually wrote this Gospel, but its origin at Edessa may attest the fact that the version of the sayings of Jesus in this Gospel originated from Thomas's witness at Edessa.

"What is not legend, nor speculation, is that the cloth, with an image of what was in the sixth century believed to be a true and miraculous facial image of Jesus, was found in the walls of the city in the sixth century. During repairs of the city walls in 525 CE, or more likely, during a Persian invasion of the city in 544 CE, the cloth was discovered where it had been concealed above one of the city gates. At the time, a church was built especially for it. It was, to the people of Edessa, the lost cloth of the legend." (quoted from http://greatshroudofturinfaq.com/Definitions/edessa.html)

Despite various scientific tests that date the Shroud to the time of Christ, to be certain we must await further Carbon-14 testing from a portion of the Shroud that has not been contaminated by a Medieval interweaving of wool in damaged parts of it. When and whether the Vatican might authorize such a new effort at authentication is unknown.

Why need the cloth, as we have the testimony of the scriptures, and of the Holy Spirit Himself through them?

 

[tyndale1946]

If the Shroud is authentic, then the most important witness to its ancient preservation is its ancient
Ivenerated at Edessa in what was then eastern Syria in the era of the early church. Ancient church tradition claims that the apostle Thomas brought Christianity to Edessa and was buried there. Scholars argue that the Coptic Gospel of Thomas (114 sayings of Jesus from oral tradition) was composed at Edessa in the late first century AD. No reputable scholar claims that Thomas actually wrote this Gospel, but its origin at Edessa may attest the fact that the version of the sayings of Jesus in this Gospel originated from Thomas's witness at Edessa.

"What is not legend, nor speculation, is that the cloth, with an image of what was in the sixth century believed to be a true and miraculous facial image of Jesus, was found in the walls of the city in the sixth century. During repairs of the city walls in 525 CE, or more likely, during a Persian invasion of the city in 544 CE, the cloth was discovered where it had been concealed above one of the city gates. At the time, a church was built especially for it. It was, to the people of Edessa, the lost cloth of the legend." (quoted from http://greatshroudofturinfaq.com/Definitions/edessa.html)

Despite various scientific tests that date the Shroud to the time of Christ, to be certain we must await further Carbon-14 testing from a portion of the Shroud that has not been contaminated by a Medieval interweaving of wool in damaged parts of it. When and whether the Vatican might authorize such a new effort at authentication is unknown.

I had a question and what you wrote answered it... Who brought the burial cloth of Christ to Edessa?... Doubting Thomas?... If what you say is true it figures!... Thomas the one who questioned the resurrection of the Lord... He wouldn't believe unless he saw, the nail prints in his hands and feet and touched them... We don't have too!

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Professor I appreciate what you have shown us here but I believe the best witness I can show another to compel them to follow Christ, is tell them what Christ has done in my life... Go home and tell your friends what the Lord has done for you... Brother Glen

 

[Deadworm]

Why need the cloth, as we have the testimony of the scriptures, and of the Holy Spirit Himself through them?

That's like asking, "Why need do you need your family albums?" Because you love your family members and old friends and you love to revive old memories and see your loved ones at different stages of their lives. I don't know about you, but I revere the thought of gazing on His blood stains that atoned for my sins. I also long to one day see Him face to face and that love has a collateral longing to know what He looked like when He once walked this earth.

Also, because scientists can't explain the unknown radiation (not a heart source!) that created the Shroud's image, I',m fascinated by speculation that this image may have been produced by the actual event of bodily resurrection.