Argue & Debate & Positive Input

[Desert Jim]

I know most people are on here like to "argue and debate" and there are plenty of subjects available for that.

However, I just would like some input on this question; HOW?? How can ANYONE come to the following assumptions about a person after having only met and spoken with a person ONE time for a few minutes"?

(These are quotes from a pastor about a church member requesting a meeting with him, after two promises to meet, he decided AGAINST meeting because of these views).
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I completely understand that you did not agree with (your SS teacher) (who stated that man could be saved without ever hearing or knowing the gospel of Jesus Christ)* Italics mine

You openly challenged (your SS teacher) in the class - (questioned his answer)

you chose to leave the church at least verbally by sending me an email.

I personally do not believe this was the right way to handle the issue.

you have been fairly dogmatic about them. (certain issues???)

It appears to me that you have many strong opinions and that you are not in agreement with how (your SS teacher) runs his class, and perhaps have disagreements with other issues as well.

And I think your understanding of his view misrepresents his belief in the gospel and his faithfulness
(Nothing unclear about his answer to the question or to the challenge of it)

I believe you are being too hard on him in your judgements.

I believe you have some strong beliefs and opinions that I cannot satisfy.

i feel like you will be perpetually unhappy with something we are doing.

I have only had a handful of people walk out of the church in similar fashion to yours. In each of these cases there was a common thread. All of them read David Cloud. (this has to be a joke )

But if you feel like you just have issues with how we do things
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His assumptions about the member are almost 100% wrong, but that isn't the issue. THE ISSUE GOES BACK TO THE QUESTION I ASKED. HOW???

The pastor says he hasn't discussed the issue with the SS teacher? So, why would he just "make it up"? and isn't this a terrible thing for a leader to do? Some of us are perplexed, to say the least. BTW, this isn't public knowledge within the church. That would be ungodly.

Thanks in Christ,

Jim

 

[Calminian]

I know most people are on here like to "argue and debate" and there are plenty of subjects available for that.

However, I just would like some input on this question; HOW?? How can ANYONE come to the following assumptions about a person after having only met and spoken with a person ONE time for a few minutes"?

(These are quotes from a pastor about a church member requesting a meeting with him, after two promises to meet, he decided AGAINST meeting because of these views).
=================================================
I completely understand that you did not agree with (your SS teacher) (who stated that man could be saved without ever hearing or knowing the gospel of Jesus Christ)* Italics mine

You openly challenged (your SS teacher) in the class - (questioned his answer)

you chose to leave the church at least verbally by sending me an email.

I personally do not believe this was the right way to handle the issue.

you have been fairly dogmatic about them. (certain issues???)

It appears to me that you have many strong opinions and that you are not in agreement with how (your SS teacher) runs his class, and perhaps have disagreements with other issues as well.

And I think your understanding of his view misrepresents his belief in the gospel and his faithfulness
(Nothing unclear about his answer to the question or to the challenge of it)

I believe you are being too hard on him in your judgements.

I believe you have some strong beliefs and opinions that I cannot satisfy.

i feel like you will be perpetually unhappy with something we are doing.

I have only had a handful of people walk out of the church in similar fashion to yours. In each of these cases there was a common thread. All of them read David Cloud. (this has to be a joke )

But if you feel like you just have issues with how we do things
====================================
His assumptions about the member are almost 100% wrong, but that isn't the issue. THE ISSUE GOES BACK TO THE QUESTION I ASKED. HOW???

The pastor says he hasn't discussed the issue with the SS teacher? So, why would he just "make it up"? and isn't this a terrible thing for a leader to do? Some of us are perplexed, to say the least. BTW, this isn't public knowledge within the church. That would be ungodly.

Thanks in Christ,

Jim

From this limited knowledge it sounds bad. Some church leaders don't like arguing at all. They believe all argument should be shunned by Christians. That's make life easy for them, as they have the pulpit and no one can question them. But in truth, Pastor's and teachers should be able to answer questions and defend their beliefs.

And if there is a concern, Sr. Pastor's should get involved. I personally would be very concerned about a teacher in a Church teaching that one can be saved apart hearing the gospel. It shows at best an immature theology.

And if the Pastor is willing to defend this, he likely believes the same thing. Now you have to decide if it's an error you can live with. Pastors will err. Happens all the time. Some err worse than others. If you can live with it, not stay bothered about it, then stay. If you can't, you probably should leave.

 

[Deacon]

What’s a person to do when they believe a person has sinned or doctrinally erred?
Can’t say I would agree with the SS teacher either
But I’d simply present the other side of the argument.

Afterwards I’d go to them privately, try to ferret out exactly what the problem was, in a non-confrontational setting... lunch/dinner, I’m buying. Teachers need to learn too.

A confrontation in class is not the right way.

Sure, a brief questioning in a group setting would not be out of bounds
But there are right ways and wrong ways to do it.
Challenging a teachers authority is the wrong way.
Hey, I’ve personally made that mistake before...
​

A person who cannot set asside simple misunderstandings and is confrontive and argumentative is just looking for a reason to leave.
If they want to be backed up by the authority of the pastor, who goal is unity rather than confrontation, he’ll be reluctant to upset the teacher.

The next question the pastor should ask is: Are you willing to begin teaching the class in his place?

Rob

 

[Calminian]

...If they want to be backed up by the authority of the pastor, who goal is unity rather than confrontation, he’ll be reluctant to upset the teacher.

Hmmm. Is the primary goal? Unity? It's a goal, but I would think biblical truth trumps everything. Unity without truth is not true unity.

The teacher is not just wrong on some small issue. He's messing with the Gospel. I'm thinking if I'm a Pastor I'd be willing to hash this out for the sake of biblical integrity.

I agree with you BTW, on tone and respect. The church needs winsome members to bring up issues that will make a Church stronger.

 

[Deacon]

So as a pastoral authority you would go with this person and confront the teacher?

Steps need to be done in the correct order and that will explode the situation

Rob

 

[Calminian]

So as a pastoral authority you would go with this person and confront the teacher?

Steps need to be done in the correct order and that will explode the situation

Rob

Oh I agree. I'm not disputing the order of conflict resolution. As I said, I agree with you on doing this the proper way. I would just dispute that unity is a priority over truth and sound doctrine. That's all I'm saying.

I also agree, that sometimes a talk after class is better than during class. But if it's a participation environment, I think the teacher needs to expect and deal with challenges. I'm not sure I'd be quiet about a teaching like that either. It's false doctrine, and might be essential. I'm surprised he's the only one that spoke up.

It also sounds to me like the Pastor is trying to push the guy out. Seems a little harsh.

 

[Desert Jim]

THANKS TO ALL WHO HAVE REPLIED. This has now splintered into many facets, I suppose, and it wasn't my intention for it to do so. Oh, I certainly don't mind, because I can discuss and defend any doctrine I support. NNE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD, THOUGH.

How is it possible for a godly man to come up with the opinions he did of another man, when he said he hadn't spoken with the SS Teacher and had only with the other man close to two years ago. The man has attended the church regularly on Sunday for two years as well as the SS Class. About any "challenge", I disagree that it was such. The SS teacher encourages questions and comments; says he enjoys them; that it keeps him on his toes. So, that being the case, any man that would sit there and not question his answer to the question is either 1) ignorant of God's word or 3) has no back bone.

Actually, there has never been any disagreement, except openly in class, between the two men. So, the pastor must have just ignorantly came to the conclusions he came to for whatever reason. Yes, maybe to get someone with some backbone out of the church. Personally, I love the pastor and the SS teacher and have always had a lot of respect for both on them. The SS teacher is in his 80's and is still pretty sharp (he just blew it that time and certainly didn't give the answer he believed or that he KNEW was correct. Perhaps he DID feel challenged and got into the flesh and decided to let it ride.

No more than the average church goer knows about what even "he/she" believes, he knows much less of God's word. Because of that, I think the answer the SS teacher gave did a lot of damage. Anyway, just wanted to get a rounded opinion of the matter, but I got a BUNCH of opinions, round, square and otherwise . Thanks again, folks. Always enjoy it on here until the flesh takes over and we become like a bunch of folks who have never even known the lord . Oh, yes, it happens in church. WHY? Because we are still in the FLESH and satan has a grasp on that!! Love in Christ, Jim

 

[Deacon]

Well Jim, the next move on your part (even before airing a grievance on a public posting board), would be to go directly to the pastor.

Then you can ask him, "How is it possible for a godly man to come up with the opinions he did of another man, when he said he hadn't spoken with the SS Teacher and had only with the other man close to two years ago?"

Guessing, pondering, ruminating, asking others about it, grumbling, gossiping, don't let them happen.

Rob

 

[Desert Jim]

Thanks, Deacon, but you are assuming too much.

In His Service,

Jim