Two Disparate Rule Books

No sir. My post was focused on spiritual discernment in regards to Progressive Revelation spoken of in 1 Cor 2, I do not and have never used these verses to question someone's faith, unlike the way these passages have been used against me by Calvinists many times, but I used them as per a more mature and correct understanding in that you need to eat some more meat.

So what I hear you saying, in hypocrisy, is that if I don't believe as you I don't truly believe on Christ. No sir, I go by the Biblical order:

Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

...Which BTW demonstrates human volition and I would tell YOU that: To ignore or to change the inspired, divine order is false doctrine!

Not once did I mention "logic" in my post above, in fact, I merely gave you some of the same type spiritual understanding claims you love to make your arguments from as to why I don't understand, like you, back at you. Only I defined mine by scripture not only what you are missing but spelled out the similarities you have with the Jews that also missed this revelation, but it seems that it is you who are not interested and it is your mind that is made up. All I can say is that I tried.

Blessings to you.

 

You can't have all that happen of Rom 1 the day after Man fell. There wasn't time! Read through the entire list of things of the said chapter!

Absolutely not! You can't pin all this on one sin of Adam & Eve. This was a degeneration of groups of people and cultures. Each group and culture had time to see the God of creation and NOT suppress the truth which I'm sorry Dave but you're seeking to do right now.

What even from birth? So don't even give them any time to suppress the truth? That they're suppressors from the second their born? What sort of nonsense is that? So you'd say God gave their ancestors time to harden their hearts but not them? Are you sure you've really thought through on this Dave. I'd have to say you haven't.

Where did I ever claim that man was righteous after Adam & Eve sinned. Being in a position to respond to the grace of God doesn't mean you have to be walking in the total righteousness of God .

Oh, oh I see. Now that's a little different. I don't ever recall a Calvinists say this before or a Reformed or whatever you claim yourself to be. So you're saying total depravity didn't happen after A&E sinned. But then the flood of Noah came and with it a new start. But what about all the new children.....so they were as totally and absolute depraved from birth as the world before them from birth? So children now don't progress over 100's of years to reach that point? Sorry David I must insist to you that your concept of falls apart.

But why should it matter to me of a claim some learn it straight from the Bible? If I say to you I learned what I believe to be the truth from the Bible will you accept it any better?

But David my friend we've covered ALL THIS before. I think that's what you said to me.

Well buddy of course that goes both ways so tell me....are you all ears? Well of course you'd claim you don't need to for it's a given you're right. I think we all need to study on various subjects Dave but this is one in particular you need to work on. At least in my opinion.

Well Dave I sincerely do wish the same for you. Truly I do. I just can't get it how in the world you think the way you do. Wishing you all the best.

 

As you refuse to hear as well.

Well Protestant why don't you go and just be upfront with unbelievers and stop your game of preaching like an Arminian but believing like a Calvinist...or so the saying goes. Cease being ashamed of what you believe and go tell the world. Why don't you go and tell the unbeliever ,

"Look I can't tell you at all if God gives a hoot about you. He may not! He may absolutely despise you as he does in my opinion most of the people of the Earth. Oh yes Jesus tells you to love your enemies but don't think that God by any means has to do the same thing and don't ever claim it's hypocrisy for him not to do what he instructed you to do! And NO he doesn't have to lead by example. Yeah you're right what you've heard about us Calvinists is true...we believe from your very birth there's a better chance than not that you'll never ever get a chance at salvation because it's only given to special elite group and there's no measure of begging or pleading will ever change that. Yes we were just as bad a sinners as everybody else but don't you complain that I get to go to heaven and you don't. It's just the way it is my friend and it's selfish for you to even want a chance! Learn you place and be happy well...as long as you can!"

All right go out into the world right now and tell the world this is what you believe. Will that pass the smell test for unbelievers? Yes that's strong above and I don't mean to offend but isn't that exactly what you believe? If you take the wraps off it is.

Here's what Martin Luther said about Calvinism,

“Doubtless it gives the greatest possible offense to sense or natural reason, that God, who is proclaimed as being full of mercy and goodness, and so on, should of His own mere will abandon, harden and damn men, as though He delighted in the sins and great eternal torments of such poor wretches. It seems an iniquitous, cruel, intolerable thought to think of God; and it is this that has been a stumbling block to so many men down the ages. And who would not stumble at it? I have stumbled at it myself more than once, down to the deepest pit of despair, so that I wish I had never been made a man.” – Martin Luther, Bondage Of The Will

Did you read what you said? And who would not stumble at it! In other words it not a message that is really workable in even sharing with the world. It goes against all natural, sane reason and as Luther said to the world it is the GREATEST OFFENSE. So please P spare us your critique in claiming a non-Calvinists view doesn't pass the smell test with unbelievers! Does yours? Even a well known Calvinist above says it does not!

 

For the overall benefit of the universe it is. Because God is LOVE he had to make the penalty so great so as to discourage the greatest number of spiritual being from bringing forth and walking in spiritual death, and rebellion. Rebellion takes away LIFE therefore it was because of LOVE that hell was brought forth. I know that's hard for you to grasp and you'll mock it but such is the way it is.

Well P I'll try to show patience with your charge that our views are God-dishonoring for the reason well....that's what I and others think about yours. And by the way stop your game of degrading your opponents by calling them Pelgian. As for me I don't hold to that belief system regardless of your claim to the contrary.

God maintains FREE WILL for that's what LOVE does. And by the way...you're now talking like an OPEN THEIST...You seem to say God needed to see if humanity would pass the test. OK a deal...you KNOCK IT OFF calling myself or others Pelagian and I'll cease in referring to you as an Open Theist...the ball is now in your court....do with it as you please.

NO! You seem to have this not well thought out thought that God can do everything. God has revealed his will and the basic perimeters of character in which he operates. Can God lie? NO! Can God change? NO! You fail to consider at times there is no further solution to a problem. Was there any other way to save humanity outside of sending Christ? Oh you say he should be wise enough to think of some other way?

All men are not saved because God doesn't force beings into relationship with himself. That's opposite of LOVE and God is LOVE.

It was still by their own choice which LOVE gave them. Now what about your theology? So you have it that God's pleased to see people torment in Hell who didn't even get a chance. So that's what you delight in and saying, "That's OK!" I'd suggest that you should almost be like Martin Luther was in his quote above where he said sometimes I wish I wasn't even a man to believe this stuff. Martin should have studied a little deeper. I think he would have rejected it in seeing it didn't line up with scripture. Oh well.

 

Here's the rest of the quote, Rockson, in case you missed it:

" I have stumbled at it myself more than once, down to the deepest pit of despair, so that I wish I had never been made a man ( That was before I knew how health-giving that despair was, and how close to grace ). This is why so much toil and trouble has been devoted to clearing the goodness of God, and throwing the blame on man's will." - Martin Luther in "Luther: A Profile" page 192, by H.G. Koenigsberger

He did study it deeper, and he thought it did line up with Scripture.

Luther also said this:

" Can the endeavors of "free will" lay hold of eternal salvation, when it cannot keep hold of a farthing, or a hair of the head? When we have no power to hold down the creature, can we have power to hold down the Creator? Why are we so crazy? " - Martin Luther in "Luther: A Profile" page 194, by H.G. Koenigsberger

It doesn't need to pass a "smell test", as the Gospel has more than one purpose.
It's primary purpose is to tell sinners about Jesus Christ, and it isn't meant to be attractive to the world.

What's more, our responsibility as believers is to present it exactly the way the apostles did....which, if you look carefully, made no mention of John 3:16 or any other passage that would give a person the idea that God loves them.


In addition, I think you may wish to look at this important rule from Scripture:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 )

Here we see that the preaching of the cross is foolishness, to "them that perish".
But to "us which are saved" it is the power of God.

Given this Scriptural truth, how should we, as believers, "market" the Gospel?
Tell everyone that God loves them?

Not even the apostles did that....at least, not until they had seen the evidence of belief.



Which brings me to my next point:
The Gospel is to be presented in an unbiased, declarative fashion out of the word of God...

Man is a sinner.
Sin has a penalty.
God sent His Son to live, die and rise again and to pay the penalty.
Those that believe on Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

See Acts of the Apostles 2:22-36 and Acts of the Apostles 13:15-39 if speaking to Jews, and Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31 if speaking to Gentiles.


If a person presents the Gospel and tells someone that God loves them during the presentation ( when the apostles did no such thing ), are they not preaching a different gospel?

I hope you can see that it's best to preach it exactly as Peter, Paul and the others did, and not as many men today do...because as sure as I know there is a God in Heaven, I also know that He will hold men responsible for how they preach His word and present His Gospel.


After preaching the Gospel to people, that is when the believer should be slowly, carefully and soberly told what you might call "Calvinism" ( which is in the fine print ) and comes later, when doctrine gets laid down.


That's exactly how it happened for me.

 

Dear Rockson:

I greatly appreciate your valiant and patient effort explaining, in the clearest of terms, scriptural truth.

Though those to whom our responses were directed refuse to ‘hear,’ our Lord promises His Word will not return void, but will accomplish all that He pleases.

I am certain many who read this thread will be challenged enough to investigate the truth of our arguments for themselves.

The notion that God predestined all people’s choices and sends most that He created to eternal burning torment doesn’t meet the ‘smell test,’ such is an argument that is shared by unbelievers who claim God is a tyrant and responsible for evil.

A few years ago while doing my internship for Physical Therapy, my supervisor was on the computer next to me as I did my patient documentation and I noticed him working on Bible verses, I told him I was also a Christian and asked him about it.

He explained that he was preparing and has been leading a very interesting home Bible study group of 7 people and he mentioned their lesson tonight was about predestination. He seemed pretty excited about all they were learning in their studies and I quickly discovered they were learning about Calvinism.

He was surprised to find out that I understood the TULIP and even more surprised when I explained to him about the origins of Calvinism, the consequences of Limited Atonement, and I addressed the Problem of Evil when it came to Determinism and how it related to all the points of the TULIP.

He was very interested and we stayed an hour or so after work talking about this and he relayed what I had said to his group. The next day he told me they had a really good study and were taking much of Calvinism for granted but now had a lot more questions.

We talked a few more times over the next couple weeks and then he told me again that he’d been relaying what I said to his study group and they seemed to be having more questions than answers. He said they thought they were on to something but now weren’t so sure and he asked me if I would come to his Bible study and help him out and I told him next week I would.

So I went by and we had a nice in-depth discussion about Calvinism and my reasoning for opposition to it and at the end it was pretty clear that most all of them were rejecting the teachings of Determinism. In fact, apparently all but one guy who was pretty excited about learning how to proof-text the soteriological view of Determinism, much could be said about thrill of suddenly becoming a “skilled theologian” through the simplistic systematic studies of Calvinism.

Fortunately, he too came to see the contradictions to God’s true loving attributes and Omnibenevolence and rejected it a couple weeks later.

Rockson, our detractors have their answer to this question:

“When you put your children in bed at night did you lie to them and tell they them Jesus loves them or did you tell them your “scriptural truth” that that you hope they are one of the lucky pre-selected few?”

All Hyper Determinists will make excuses for their lack of transparency in their delivery of the gospel and hope to rely on half-truths until, as they say for example: “After preaching the Gospel to people, that is when the believer should be slowly, carefully and soberly told what you might call "Calvinism" ( which is in the fine print ) and comes later, when doctrine gets laid down.” Then they are lead to believe they came up with this soteriological view merely by studying the scriptures and with great enthusiasm tell others of their special spiritual knowledge and God’s limited love.

All Hyper Determinists on this Board will agree God created most people to condemn to eternal torment for His glory.

Hell’s existence then must deny God’s love.

I doubt there is a more blasphemous definition of love than that.

Our Hyper Determinists detractors refuse to consider several biblical truths which, if understood correctly, would be quite beneficial to exposing their steadfast God-dishonoring views.

(1) Adam had true free will, and chose to have the knowledge of good and evil. God did not then recreate mankind to not have free will as Determinists posit. Our Hyper Determinist detractors “make God an idiot” who must have messed up to give man sense, reason and intellectual ability to make a choice and has to force them to love Him back after the Garden.

(2) If God is infinitely wise, Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent and Truth as clearly stated in the Bible, then isn’t He wise enough to have the kind of knowledge needed to allow man human volition and powerful enough to truly and justly judge them without having predetermined their every action and response to His loving persuasions?

(3) If God creating evil is so, how can He judge what He’s predetermined and yet be Only Good?

(4) The Hyper Determinist detractors put God’s knowledge in a box, saying “If God foreknows all things since He is omniscient, God must foreknow who would reject Jesus Christ.” Then they “logically” conclude, “Yet He chose to bring them into this world, only to face eternal damnation.” Giving their reasoning how it must be true that God created most to suffer in hell. Would it not be possible that God is powerful and loving enough to give every man the true hope of receiving His mercy and grace as per His promise made before the foundation of the world, and that all understand and have no excuse when it comes to God’s judgment of their response?

Rockson, I leave this thread with these common sense questions for our detractors, of whom there are many, to ponder.


I have biblical answers to all these questions as, I am sure, you do also.

To God be the glory forever and ever, brother!

 

No I confess that I didn't read that as I got the quotation from another source. But still doesn't negate the fact that inwardly he was bewildered about the whole thing. Don't believe God left us in the dark in regard to his gracious, loving, merciful character. He said something as well...I has his full writing on line but have lost it ...can't seem to get back....but it seems he talked about it as a great mystery which shouldn't be thought about much. Perhaps Dave you have this Luther Profile and can bring forth this quote....but no....can't buy it as a mystery that shouldn't be studied for all things of Gods ture character I'd say hinges on this theme.

Flowery words but really don't say much. If man has the ability to think and reason at God's request that's the real issue. I'd say man can.

Well Dave you need to go back and see where the smell test term was introduced in this thread. It was done so by our good friend "P" who said sinners don't think non-Calvinist views don't pass such a test with sinners. I'd disagree. I'd say Calvinistic teaching far more are a turn off then any let's say for want of a better term an Arminian type message that the unsaved would hear.

So are you now going as far to say that Calvinistic doctrines as it comes to how you think about election is the gospel? If one doesn't believe these things they're not saved? If those are your thoughts that's a great overplay Dave. Please think about what you're saying.

So are you saying that if one believes the essentials first they don't have to bear the GREAT GRIEF until a little time later? You read what Luther said....such a great sorrow there were times he wished he never was born. And it seems he never really did get over it for he said (haven't got the quote) that he encouraged folks not even to think about the mystery. To me it seems just a way to overcome trauma.

 

Great testimony Benjamin!

Yeah just that alone. That one can't say to a child with absoultue confidence that Jesus loves them. What a sad, sad thing that people have had that stripped from them God's REAL love to all.

 

That's one thing I think we could both agree on...an "Arminian" type message definitely appeals more to mankind, which is why "Arminian" type churches are generally a lot bigger.

I am thinking about what I am saying.
The question is, Rockson, is the preaching of the cross of Christ foolishness to you?
If it isn't, then I think you're most probably saved.

What I'm saying is, that a person doesn't have to know about the details of election, predestination, calling and so forth to be one of the saved.
The thief on the cross is a good example.

Now a question, Rockson....


Do you believe in what is termed as "Eternal Security"?

 

Thanks. The dark message that God is not Love gets much sadder. I rarely tell of my introduction to Calvinism because it can be taken offensively and the similarities are too hard to avoid. It was from a Warlock Priest while roleplaying with his subordinates as if he were a Christian I came to find out, in short: who was very proficient at proof-texting from the Bible to support Deterministic doctrines, which he used to recruit people into Satanism, by convincing them “as per the scriptures” they were not one of God’s pre-selected children and therefore had no ability to ever have faith in Him, he claimed God did not love them, therefore, by evidence of lack of faith they should know they are a child of Lucifer, ...he later then privately recruited them to join the church of Satan and rise to power with their father, prepare for the defeat of God to come. He had quite a following and recruiting system. This happened about 16 years ago, much more to the story, still raises the hair on the back of my neck just to think about his "skill" and purpose in twisting the scriptures, …He was difficult for me to deal with at the time as these types of doctrines were new to me, but I would love a rematch today…

 

Wow! What a stunning account you give here! So what you're saying there's people who are in that camp today because they were deceived into thinking God doesn't love them due to Calvinistic claims. I'm surprised there hasn't been one Calvinist here even to give comment of your post. I'd suggest it should shake them to the core of the end result of what their teaching can do. Crickets! Not word from them. I'd like to believe the best of these dear people but sad. Perhaps yet they won't let us down.

 

Who said that God is not love?

The Bible is very clear that that God is love ( 1 John 4:7-21 ).

Now back to the question, Rockson...do you believe in "Eternal Security"? If so, would you please list some of the passages that support it?

 

Here's why...

Proverbs 26:4


I am just going to ignore both of yours' posts from now on. I am not putting you on ignore, but I am going to ignore your posts.

 

Well, not being a follower of John Calvin, that would rule me out.
But since many in this world would label me as one, I will comment on it.

What surprises me is that anyone would listen to a Warlock, given who his master is.
Jesus told the religious Pharisees:

" Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." ( John 8:44 )

God's word specifically states that He is love ( 1 John 4:7-21 )...so the question as to its truth, to me, is off the table.
The real question is, who does He manifest that love to?

Read the passage carefully, and "track the pronouns".
From my perspective, the subject is ( at least in the passage quoted immediately above ) believers, not unbelievers.
If you see it any different, please show me.


Now, with respect to twisting the Scriptures, the Bible states:

" For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." ( 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 )

As a good example of twisting Scriptures, take a look at this video from a man who teaches that salvation can be lost.
Make note that he also teaches that it can be gained by an act ( or acts ) of the will...making it a reward instead of a gift:



To me, he is fairly proficient at proof-texting to make his point.

 

In point of fact, Luther was not commenting on "Calvinism." Luther's Bondage of the Will was a response to Erasmus' book on free will. What is more, Calvin's institutes were published for the first time in 1536, but Luther's Bondage was published in 1525. So, no... Luther was not saying anything about "Calvinism." And yet, his words here about the not-un-bound will of humans is quite poignant, and rightly so. Luther's Sovereign God is still far superior to the in-sovereign god of so many others of that day.

The Archangel

 

The book of Luther probably was the single biggest reason that I chnaged my mind regarding calvinism, as his book showed to me that we cannot do anything to save ourselves in our current state before God.

 

Save what? God doesn't love evil.

Saving implies something is being rescued.

 

That’s about the best you’ll get Rockson, as in a fallacious semantics denial (“Who said that God is not love?”) from people who just finished clearly saying they wouldn’t tell their own child that Jesus loves them.

I find it very problematic that they won’t own up to their obvious purposeful lack of transparency and make excuses for it, usually through simply making claims that they “only” teach the scriptures while avoiding any conclusions to their doctrines that might challenge their interpretations. Many will deny any affiliation to the doctrines of John Calvin and its roots whatsoever and typically insist their reasoning is their own scripturally derived systematic doctrines while at the same time foolishly asserting there is no logic involved in their arguments because they have some special sort of understanding of the scriptures that those, “with carnal minds”, who disagree with them just can’t get. If you start to pin their reasoning down they will quickly pull another card from their “non-affiliated” philosophical constructs of their systematic theological and lead you to chase another of their rabbits into its hole… and around we go...

Unfortunately, I have found there is there is really not much that separates their methods, claims and conclusions from being similar with those behind my first encounter with Deterministic doctrines but I maintain hope that the truth of God’s love can be drawn out and will shine through for whosoever will respond back in love and believe in the truth of the sacrifice and Great Love of our God who created us all. I will never preach anything less than God’s Great Love for all as my reason for the hope that is in me and my belief of His true and genuine desire for all to come to Him see this truth and be saved.