Two Disparate Rule Books

I'm sorry Dave, but I've already tried to address this fear of yours, maybe you should read this again:

Too much fear of God’s wrath, or the wrong kind of “fear”, might demonstrate one’s lack of faith in who their Father truly is, or a poor relationship that does not understand how great His Love is, but I find the later troublesome for anyone in that relationship who truly knows Him as their merciful and loving Father full of grace. Although, it is understandable that a milk sucking believer, seeing their inescapable bondage to the knowing of the truth, might naturally have a great fear of the judgment of All Mighty God. I would tell a true believer of a growing process to get to know Him for who He is, Love, and to know the Greatness of that Love:

John 14:26

(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

…And to take comfort and remember these instructions He gives us as the child of a loving Father:

Rom 8:15

(15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Once adopted into the family of God a child naturally cries out in conviction of his sins to his Father to which he understands is Holy and becomes frightfully aware that He knows all your various circumstances, but in the confidence of knowing one is truly loved as a son by a wise Father whose guidance and love is immeasurable for His child one can take comfort and find peace from that fear.

I would tell an unbeliever despite God’s love for all His creatures that His wrath on the child of the Devil is sure and exceedingly dreadful without and unless you receive the gift of His grace which comes through belief in the love of the truth in His sacrifice of His Son whom He gave in love to provide the way of adoption and to pay the price for your sins as a son through Him.

 

For the record:

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 )

1) Be a sheep.
2) Believe.

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )

1) Ordained to eternal life.
2) Believed.

" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 )

1) God works a work.
2) People believe.

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day" ( John 6:44 )

1) The Father draws someone.
2) They believe ( come ).
3) Christ raises them up on the last day.


" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 )

1) Given to the Son by the Father.
2) Believe.


" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )

1) Chosen to salvation.
2) Believed.

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake." ( Philippians 1:29 )

1) Given to believe.
2) Believe.

" All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." ( John 6:37 )

1) Given to the Son by the Father.
2) Believed.

" It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." ( John 6:45 )

1) Have learned of ( from ) the Father.
2) Believes.

" But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." ( Romans 10:8-10 )

1) The word is nigh ( near ) a person, in their mouth and in their heart.
2) Confess and believe.
3) Belief is out of a changed heart, not to change the heart.

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 )

1) God chooses.
2) God causes a person to come to Him.


Acts of the Apostles 16:29 -31 is not the only passage in the Bible where someone believed.
There's a reason why people believe, and God's word details it plainly.

Best wishes.

 

Benjamin,
I've already read that, thank you.
My "fear" is not a fear of His wrath...but a very healthy respect for His power and His selectivity with regard to mankind.

Knowing that I am saved, and that He did it for me, while bypassing a great number of my fellows, still, to this day, amazes me.
Knowing that a vast number of people who think that they are saved, and are in reality going to Hell, also sobers me.

He is to be feared and respected for being God, and for pardoning some and reserving the rest to everlasting punishment.

The sheer power of His will and His willingness to show terrible wrath is what scares me.
I am very glad that He is my friend and my Saviour.

 

How do you know this Dave, who does this reply to and what is it based on? You seem pretty assured that you are set apart from those others "who think they are saved"; I don't find that being very sober? What makes you so special Dave?

 

I thought we covered that?
Scripture tells me:

" Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 )

I have faith and I believe His words ( Hebrews 11:1-3 ).
That is the evidence of my salvation.
I also know that I was called in 1978 by the word of God...not by a man's persuasion.

I very specifically remember keying in on the verses as they were preached...not just the efforts of the man telling me I had to "do" something.

You mean anymore special than anyone else who has believed on Christ by the work of the Holy Ghost?


Nothing.

Is there any other way to believe on Christ, than by the work of God?

Yes.

They are called "tares", and they are false believers put in the churches by their father the devil ( Matthew 13:18-23 ).
Jesus explains who the tares are:

" Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
39 the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world." ( Matthew 13:36-40 )

You've read this in your studies, no?
It's very sobering to realize that there may be sitting right next to you or me in church, someone who isn't really a child of God... but only professes it with their lips, while their hearts are far from Him.

" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:9 )


May God bless you always.

 

Arminius was in error.

Salvation was never lost, because mankind as a whole, never had it.
Only Christ's sheep ever had it ( Matthew 25:34, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Titus 3:4-7 ).

In addition, Christ is not the subordinate cause of that salvation...He is the ordinate cause of it, right after His Father ( John 6:44, John 6:64-65 ). He is only "subordinate" to the Father's will ( John 6:38 ).

"Calvinism" exalts Christ as the Lamb of God who made atonement for His sheep ( John 10:11 ), and it exalts Him as the Author and Finisher of the believer's faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ).

No part of the Saviour and His work does the "Calvinist" ever treat lightly, or demean Him in any way, shape or form.
His blood is precious, and His nail prints reminders of the pain and suffering that He endured...the shame that He went through, and what he became for us, His sheep:

Our sin.

He was the perfect offering, and died to make His brethren whole....raised again for our justification and is set down at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for us.


Christ is the minister and instrument to apply that salvation to us:

" These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." ( John 17:1-3 )


That is why Jakob Hermannszoon's teachings were denounced at the Synod of Dordrecht in 1619.

Because he failed to realize that Christ is the only merit...
Not man's efforts to gain eternal life.

 

When they ask you what makes you special, you know the debate is over. They show right there they have no knowledge whatsoever of divine sovereign election. There was nothing in us that attracted God to us. Here is what He told Israel...The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.[Deuteronomy 7:7,8] He chose Israel because He loved them, not that they were anything special. He never said this to the Perizzites, Hittites, Hivites, Philistines, Egyptians, Assyrians, Syrians, Edomites, et al.

God based His electing love upon Himself, and not anything in those He elected unto salvation...but you can't get them to see it. A god that does not agree with them on EVERYTHING and does not meet their self-righteous demands, is not a god worthy of their praise and worship, and they will never bow the knee to that god.

 

I wonder what made them so special? According to them, if God calls Bobby, He has to call Billy. If He calls Mary, He has to call Molly. If He calls William, He has to call Willard. It then becomes, not grace, but an obligation. If God calls one, He HAS TO call everyone. If He does not do that, then, well, God just ain't fair! Forget the verses stating that He will harden who He will harden and have mercy upon them who He will have mercy. Again, a god that does not agree with them on EVERYTHING and does not meet their self-righteous demands, is not a god worthy of their praise and worship, and they will never bow the knee to that god.

 

Yes it's a wonderful verse you gave about God's love to his children. Yes from the foundation of the world there was a kingdom prepared for such.

Because a righteous, just judge sends someone he loves to the penitentiary to pay for his crime (or sin) is that proof he didn't love them? Isn't there a thing called justice he needs to consider? Or should he just throw the need for justice away?

Because THEY CHOSE the curse instead of the blessing.

Because they chose not to come into relationship with him. Still doesn't mean he didn't love them.

 

Well we'll see.

“But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deuteronomy 4:29)

Thus demonstrates men can choose to seek God or not to seek him. To suggest it's automatic to those who do there would be NO REASON to put the word "IF" in the verse meaning they clearly have the option not to. Seeking God attracts God to men. (see Heb 11: 6)

Let's keep in mind it's referring to Israel as a national entity and not particular individuals. If you're going to claim GOD loved Israel over others as individuals you surely wouldn't have Jesus say,

" I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matt 8:13

Well you Calvinists claim every one God LOVES such is a guarantee of salvation. Was that the way of it with Israel? What happened to that first generation that came out with Moses? Did all of them get saved? And are you also aware that strangers from outside of Israel were allowed into the covenant to become Israel as well? (Ex 12:43 ,48) And you do realize do you not that God told Abraham that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed? (Gen 22:18) God's love to the world came through Covenant from Abraham and even Jesus Christ himself. Strange names we see in the genealogy of Jesus Christ....Rehab not of Israel (Matt 1:5) ...and Ruth a Moabite who was the great-grandmother of King David. (Matt 1: 5) I wonder why? Maybe God had LOVE for them too?

 

This "loving God" scares the daylights out of me

1 john 4
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.


Don't negotiate with terrorists. All FEAR requires hatred.


1 John 4
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

God is love. If you can tell the difference between Love and God, then you have a lot to learn about both.

1 John 4
16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

To abide in Love is to abide in God and God abides in him. Without God there is no caring whatsoever. Love is God. When kindness and compassion are motivating that is directly the command of God.


"I just cannot tell them that God loves them until after they've believed on Christ."

If your heart shows any compassion for anyone it comes from God.

Romans 9

1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

You willing to go to hell to save a soul? To be separated from Jesus for the sake of the enemy?

A selfish person will throw their own mother under the bus let alone complete strangers.

A good christian will prioritize others.


Romans 5

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Says its rare for folks to even die for another righteous person or even good person. But God demonstrates he was doing it while yet sinners.



Basic Christianity:

Luke 6

27“But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29“Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. 30“Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 31“Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33“If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34“If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. 35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

^all these things point to the example and character of God.

Love your enemies. BLESS those who curse you.

There can't be a blessing if God hated folks. What Blessing doesn't have the love of God?


Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. <--- If he only loves some and hates others then being AS MERCIFUL would mean pick and choosing. Do you currently flip a coin on whether or not to be merciful?

God is our perfect example to follow.

If you don't hear kindness and love, then you got the wrong message:

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

 

1 John 5

9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Is the one who doesn't believe the testimony Honest or a Liar?

the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Is the Liar the one who doesn't believe God loves them that he let his son die for him?

Shouldn't he be called honest?

 

Thanks for the info Dave, God's work is done in love and this affects responses of volitional humans in truth, yes, God gets all the credit. Amen!

Now, as per the false believers you mention, I wonder how sobering it would be for you to meet someone pretending to be a Christian while using “your” very own Calvinistic doctrines verbatim to convince people that they were children of the Devil because they struggled in their own faith and weren’t able to claim like you that their faith was Deterministically zapped into them, and have that assurance like you, as one who knows he must be one of the lucky pre-selected few that had no choice but to respond but only after God had to replace your heart to do so. That seems to make you look pretty special or very lucky!

I’d be a little concerned about my enthusiasm and pride with preaching a manmade systematic philosophical construct that used the scriptures the same way as you but tare used o achieve an opposite result.

I might start to question if I really came up with this system all by myself, and take another look at my pride of saying so, or if maybe I was deceived into believing that while I did the work of the Devil by spreading the Bad News that God had created most people whom He didn’t love with no truth of hope to suffer for eternity and that most were predestined to not have the ability to accept Jesus in faith to even receive the promise.

I’d probably start to think about how I wasn’t transparent about these beliefs when I did my “good work” of spreading the gospel according to my system like that, while I gave my reasoning to others about why it was necessary to spread this gospel if these things were all predetermined and saying that the reason for doing so as only because God commanded me to give it like that as if it was God’s intention to hold back this info of Bad News until after the Good News took effect.

Finally, I have to ponder about my enthusiasm of spreading the Word that God doesn’t love everyone and what it was that drove me to start making the excuses that I just couldn’t find it in my heart to come to God as per His persuasions, but would claim that God had to force me to believe while continuing to express my great fear of His wrath.

Yeah, it’s good that you like to use the scriptures to make your reasoning for you but the Devil is pretty good at using the scriptures too and I don’t like his reasoning!

Yea, the Devil believes also and trembles. (James 2:19) He’s probably going to say he didn’t have a choice in the matter also, he’s going to claim he just couldn’t bring himself to love God’s truth, didn’t have the ability. Too bad for him that just believing in God and having fear of His wrath isn’t enough but it seems God wants something more from him than just to know that he is in for a REAL hard time and to have no choice but to believe.

In fact, the Bible is pretty clear that everyone understands these things, God’s eternal power and Godhead so that they are without excuse, (Romans 1:20) this confirms, as the Bible says, that all God’s ways are judgment in truth, (Deuteronomy 32:4) so what is the condition to receive the gift of God’s grace as per His judgment?

The answer is FAITH my friend, TRUE FAITH from “YOUR” heart (Romans 10:9) and that comes in love of the TRUTH, God is not Only LOVE but is also TRUTH. There are no excuses not to respond, there is no getting around it, God is LOVE and you got a choice to love that TRUH because He isn’t going to force you to do anything, he’s just going to let those who can’t find it in themselves to love Him back, the unthankful (Romans 1:21) the fools (Romans 1:22) to be judged for their sins and sinners don’t get to be in His Kingdom so they can just FREELY take up residence with their buddy who also doesn’t like the idea of God being Love or having to make his own choice one way or the other.

 

Yes they're a part of preaching the gospel to EVERY creature. Worry not though God is not looking at it as something he has to do but something he gets to do.

Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’ But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. Matt 22:1-14

God didn't consider it an obligation to invite all to his banquet. Such was his good pleasure.

 

Its always the Calvinist shocking and vast miracle and absolute surprise that God turned out to be half a evil God rather then complete evil God expected.

Wow he bothered to even save a wretch like. What a total miracle.

And they don't see the insult in that presumption But do if you assume God was actually good.

The power of fear and terrorism can only take you so far. Then you bump into the good guys who actually care about others FIRST then selfishly themselves.

 

Those who stay lost in ther sins are not those who will wonder if god loves them, are they able to get saved etc, as their nature itself is to reject the authority of god over them, as they still want to keep on"playing God"

 

If corruption were to overtake any nature to the unnatural point nothing of it was considered GOOD by God, Then it would be no nature at all but and abomination and the actual destruction of the entity.

The system would have to explain "your already dead" But not a born "again", because you never have lived.

There also would be nothing to save as your soul would be equated to murder and rape. Does God save murder and rape? What is there to rescue if you ARE , the corruption, the fire and the evil?

Something in there has got to be a spark of good. If it were evil than it would only be evil.

 

Still in a warped image of God, in the lost is the wicked heart, and the sin nature!

 

What do you mean? There's lots of people who aren't saved who wonder if God loves them or if he did does he still! Some people have done bad things and aren't sure that he would. Some of these might even have pride but they still wonder about these things and coming to know the goodness of God can lead them to repentance. Rom 2:4

 

They will not think about it the sense of wanting to be saved by God...