The Jesuit Origins of Futurism

[church mouse guy]

"The book Dispensational Truth: God’s Plan and Purpose for the Ages (1918), containing over 115 charts and other illustrations, is considered a classic and continues to be reprinted today. Larkin wrote a number of other books including commentaries on Daniel and Revelation, which also contain intricate charts and drawings."

"During the last few years of Larkin’s life, his works became so popular that he left the pastorate to devote all his time to writing."

Who was Clarence Larkin?

I think that my friend showed me one of his books, He is a fundamentalist, wasn't he? Isn't Darby considered to be the father of modern dispensationalism? These ideas were at the Niagara Bible Conference from 1883 to 1897 at Niagara Falls.

In 1883 a group of Christian bible scholars met for the first time at Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario, near Niagara Falls and established the principles of Christian fundamentalism. It was here that the Niagara Bible Conference gathered every year from 1883 through 1897 (with the exception of 1884). It met at the Queen's Royal Hotel and its pavilion. James Brooks, in his Truth magazine describes the meeting of 1892 as one

"more largely attended than ever before. Often every seat in the pavilion was occupied, and the porches were filled with eager hearers of the Word. The place too becomes more beautiful as the years go by, and it would be difficult to find a spot better suited to the quiet and prayerful study of the Sacred Scriptures. The building in which the Conference meets, overlooking Lake Ontario and the River Niagara, and surrounded by green trees, is secluded from the noise of the world; and so excellent were the arrangements for the accommodation of the guests, both in Queen's Royal Hotel and in the boarding houses of the village, that not a word of complaint was heard from any one." Some of the scholars who were present, known as the founding fathers of Fundamentalism, were W.E. Blackstone, Charles Erdman, James H. Brookes, William Moorehead, A.J. Gordon, A.C. Dixon, C.I. Scofield, and J. Hudson Taylor (who founded the China Inland Mission).

https://www.theopedia.com/niagara-bible-conference

 

[TCassidy]

Darby, a Pentecostal

Plymouth Brethren.

Scofield, a Baptist

Congregationalist.

 

[church mouse guy]

Plymouth Brethren.

Congregationalist.

There was a Plymouth Brethren church in my hometown but I don't know anything about them. I am guessing that I am wrong to call them Pentecostal. Thanks for the info. I had a friend who had been a Congregationalist.

 

[TCassidy]

Some teenage girl said that the rapture would occur before the tribulation when she had a word of knowledge or something like that at a Pentecostal service where Darby was--not sure how Darby relates to the teenage girl.

In reverse order, Darby had nothing to do with the girl, Agnes Ozman, who was the first to experience "Spirit Baptist" with the evidence of "speaking in tongues" at Charles Parham's Bethel Bible School in Topeka, Kansas.

Dave MacPherson spread Samuel Tregelles's accusation that Margaret MacDonald originated the idea of a pre-trib rapture when having a vision in 1830.

There are several problems with that accusation. The first is that Darby regarded the 1830 charismatic manifestations of Margaret MacDonald to be demonic and not from God.

Next is the fact that Darby had already written out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 years prior to the 1830 events and the MacDonald "visions."

Lastly, when the transcript of MacDonald's "vision" is actually read, it is clear her "vision" advocated a post-trib rapture. The 1840 printing of the transcript of her "vision" edited out the two obvious references to a post-trib rapture.

 

[church mouse guy]

In reverse order, Darby had nothing to do with the girl, Agnes Ozman, who was the first to experience "Spirit Baptist" with the evidence of "speaking in tongues" at Charles Parham's Bethel Bible School in Topeka, Kansas.

Dave MacPherson spread Samuel Tregelles's accusation that Margaret MacDonald originated the idea of a pre-trib rapture when having a vision in 1830.

There are several problems with that accusation. The first is that Darby regarded the 1830 charismatic manifestations of Margaret MacDonald to be demonic and not from God.

Next is the fact that Darby had already written out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 years prior to the 1830 events and the MacDonald "visions."

Lastly, when the transcript of MacDonald's "vision" is actually read, it is clear her "vision" advocated a post-trib rapture. The 1840 printing of the transcript of her "vision" edited out the two obvious references to a post-trib rapture.

Thanks again. Where do you find that history? How do you describe the theology of the Plymouth Brethren?

 

[Yeshua1]

If you hold the views Larkin describes, wouldn't it be wise to research them for yourself?

I do not hold to the Dispy view on end times, but the same as many of the Ecf did hold to a preMil view,as , Historical premil, or Covenant premil theology!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks again. Where do you find that history? How do you describe the theology of the Plymouth Brethren?

Pretty Much standard Baptist views of rapture, pre mil end times!

 

[1689Dave]

I do not hold to the Dispy view on endtimes, but many of the Ecf did, Historical premil, or Covenant premil theology!

It seems there are similarities in Dispensational Premillennialism. But all of the things base on the gap, i.e., the re-fulfillment of already fulfilled prophecies is new. Revived Roman Empire, Future Antichrist, etc.

 

[Yeshua1]

It seems there are similarities in Dispensational Premillennialism. But all of the things base on the gap, i.e., the re-fulfillment of already fulfilled prophecies is new. Revived Roman Empire, Future Antichrist, etc.

The main thing is taht both CT premil, and Dispy premil, see God still dealing with national Israel in some fashion at the end times, and that Jesus sets up His kingdom here upon the earth.....

 

[TCassidy]

Where do you find that history?

I taught Church History at the Seminary level for 25 years.

How do you describe the theology of the Plymouth Brethren?

They are, for the most part, main stream Evangelical, Arminian, and tend toward a "second blessing" understanding of the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit."

 

[Yeshua1]

I taught Church History at the Seminary level for 25 years.

They are, for the most part, main stream Evangelical, Arminian, and tend toward a "second blessing" understanding of the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit."

They are a mixed group for theology,as their eschatology is OK, but the Charasmatic chaos is not.

 

[church mouse guy]

They are a mixed group for theology,as their eschatology is OK, but the Charasmatic chaos is not.

So are they Pentecostal or do they just believe in the perpetuity of spiritual gifts?

 

[TCassidy]

I would not consider them Pentecostal. They are more like the Church of the Nazarene.

 

[Yeshua1]

So are they Pentecostal or do they just believe in the perpetuity of spiritual gifts?

I have read many sites on them, and saw nothing about second act of grace or spritual gifts, but some sites did say held to necessity to "must be believers baptised"

 

[church mouse guy]

I would not consider them Pentecostal. They are more like the Church of the Nazarene.

Okay, I know some of them here in Indiana. They are part of the holiness movement if you ask me. They are okay. We had a Nazarene pastor Dr. Gene Hood in Beech Grove, a suburb of Indianapolis, who was active in political and social lobbying and activities with Dr. Greg Dixon, the well-known Baptist Fundamentalist, who refused to cooperate with government. Dr. Hood was an appealing personality.

 

[robycop3]

The jeezits, in the person of Alcazar, spread preterism to try to keep the pope from being labeled the antichrist.

There's no good reason to "take" the Revelation prophecies and those of the Olivet Discourse any way but literally. And most of those events, especially the eschatological ones, have simply not yet happened.

Daniel, Paul, and Jesus in the Revelation plainly spoke of a great "man of sin" to come. Obviously, that hasn't yet occurred. the closest NONE of the prominent evil men who've lived have fulfilled ALL the Scriptural criteria to be THE worst antichrist of all, and all those criteria MUST be fulfilled PRECISELY by that man, just as Jesus fulfilled all the criteria for the Messiah.

So preterism is phony as a Chevy F-150.

 

[1689Dave]

The main thing is taht both CT premil, and Dispy premil, see God still dealing with national Israel in some fashion at the end times, and that Jesus sets up His kingdom here upon the earth.....

This is why I posted earlier about the errors in all millennial theories. Jesus said the kingdom is spiritual and comes without observation. The millennial theories all make the kingdom physical, looking for it in the future, ignoring that it is already here.

Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

 

[1689Dave]

The jeezits, in the person of Alcazar, spread preterism to try to keep the pope from being labeled the antichrist.

There's no good reason to "take" the Revelation prophecies and those of the Olivet Discourse any way but literally. And most of those events, especially the eschatological ones, have simply not yet happened.

Daniel, Paul, and Jesus in the Revelation plainly spoke of a great "man of sin" to come. Obviously, that hasn't yet occurred. the closest NONE of the prominent evil men who've lived have fulfilled ALL the Scriptural criteria to be THE worst antichrist of all, and all those criteria MUST be fulfilled PRECISELY by that man, just as Jesus fulfilled all the criteria for the Messiah.

So preterism is phony as a Chevy F-150.

Many became martyrs, as early as the 12th century, after recognizing the Papacy as the Antichrist. Many of the Reformed Creeds identify the Papacy as the Antichrist. Since this is a predominately Baptist forum, here is a quote from the London 1689 Baptist Confession.

Paragraph 4. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner;7neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.8
7 Col. 1:18; Matt. 28:18-20; Eph. 4:11,12
8 2 Thess. 2:2-9

THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH OF 1689 . (n.d.).

I have lots more on this if you are interested.

 

[mesly]

I taught Church History at the Seminary level for 25 years.

They are, for the most part, main stream Evangelical, Arminian, and tend toward a "second blessing" understanding of the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit."

I spent many years with the Open Plymouth Brethren and I can testify that they are not Arminian and do not believe in a second blessing. In fact, J. N. Darby was a Calvinist, believing in OSAS. Doctrinally, the open PBs are traditionally: OSAS, Dispensational (of the Darby/Scofield system), PreTrib Rapture, PreMil Return of Chirst, and Cessationists. Like Independent Baptist Churches, the open PB do not have a denominational structure, so each assembly is autonomous in its practices and beliefs.

I am interested in why you think that they are Arminian and believe in a "second blessing" of the HS? I have never ran across any such teachings within in any PB writings or teachings.

 

[TCassidy]

You might want to check out the Exclusive Brethren, the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church (PBCC) or the Raven-Taylor-Hales Brethren.