1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Jesuit Origins of Futurism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 1689Dave, Aug 30, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 3 of 11
  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The above are not to be confused with the Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches, who are virtually indistinguishable from Independent Baptists and can boast of such academic luminaries as Alva J. McClain, Homer Kent, John C. Whitcomb, and many others.
     
    #41 TCassidy, Aug 31, 2018
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Okay, back to the topic. "The Jesuit Origins of Futurism" is a lie told by Preterists who try to divert attention away from the FACT that the Jesuits were founded in 1534, almost 1500 years after the ECF published their belief if Historic Chiliasm.

    In fact most competent theologians recognize the origin of Chiliasm to have its roots in ancient Judiasm.

    Charles Hodge wrote “It is a Jewish doctrine. The principles adopted by its advocates in the interpretation of prophecy are the same as have been adopted by the Jews in the time of Christ; and have led substantially to the same conclusions. The Jews expected that when the Messiah came He would establish a glorious earthly kingdom at Jerusalem; that those who had died in the faith should be raised from the dead to share the Messianic reign; that all nations and peoples on the face of the earth should be subject to them; and that any nation that would not serve them should be destroyed. All the riches and honors of the world were to be at their disposal.” Hodge Systematic Theology - Eschatology.

    Because of their expectation of an earthly Kingdom the Jews, as recorded in John Chapter 6, were ready to take Jesus and make Him King by force!

    Corinthes, a contemporary of the Apostle John, taught that Christ would have an earthly Kingdom lasting a thousand years with His throne in Jerusalem. Papias (second century) taught the same thing. So did Justin Martyr (about 150 A.D.) who taught that the most Christians in his time were looking forward to an earthly kingdom.

    So, it is proved conclusively from the bible and from history that the claim that futurism, IE Premillennialism, originated with the Jesuits is patently false.
     
    #42 TCassidy, Aug 31, 2018
    • Winner Winner x 2
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Kingdom is here in part, but yet in its fullness! See GE ladd in His NT theology about that!
     
    #43 Yeshua1, Aug 31, 2018
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It was held by some of the prominent ECF, and I doubt that they got that information from the Jesuits, as got that from the scriptures and no doubt Apostolic teaching passed around!
     
    #44 Yeshua1, Aug 31, 2018
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It was ther prominent view held within the Church until the times of origemand Augustine, when the more spiritualized views that produced A Mil came about and then become primary views.
     
    #45 Yeshua1, Aug 31, 2018
  6. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    22,050
    Likes Received:
    1,858
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ladd believes that Jesus is returning at the end of the Tribulation, so you are wrong about Ladd.
     
    #46 church mouse guy, Aug 31, 2018
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My remarks were that he was premil, not that he was Rapture!
     
    #47 Yeshua1, Aug 31, 2018
  8. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    22,050
    Likes Received:
    1,858
    Faith:
    Baptist
    OK, but I don't know about that particular point. All I know is that Ladd is a major theologian who says that Jesus returns at the end of the Great Tribulation to rule a thousand years.
     
    #48 church mouse guy, Aug 31, 2018
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He would be classified as being a historical PreMil, as I mow am also!
     
    #49 Yeshua1, Aug 31, 2018
  10. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The kingdom is fully here.

    “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)


    But the resurrection on the last day is the restoration of Israel (believers in Christ) in which we enter the New Heavens and Earth.

    “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6–7)

    The single event which none but the Father knows the time of is the resurrection on the last day. And if we consider believers in Christ as biblical Israel, the resurrection speaks of Israel’s restoration into the New Heavens and earth.

    Acts also places this on the last day.

    “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19–21)

    And making sure this refers to the last day and end of the world, Matthew says;

    “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:35–36)

    Peter says;

    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
     
    #50 1689Dave, Aug 31, 2018
  11. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    3. The FUTURIST system: The events of the Apocalypse from Rev. 4 to the close lie beyond the second advent of Christ. This scheme usually adopts a literal interpretation of Israel, the Temple, and the numbers (the 31 times, 42 months, 1260 days, 3 1/2 years). So Ribera (a Jesuit, 1592), Lacunza (another Jesuit, who wrote under the name of Ben-Ezra “On the coming of Messiah in glory and majesty,” and taught the premillennial advent, the literal restoration of the ancient Zion, and the future apostasy of the clergy of the Roman church to the camp of Antichrist), S. R. Maitland, De Burgh, Todd, Isaac Williams, W. Kelly.

    Schaff, P., & Schaff, D. S. (1910). History of the Christian church (Vol. 1, p. 838). New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons.
     
    #51 1689Dave, Aug 31, 2018
  12. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,396
    Likes Received:
    672
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But Jesus said he will be ruling ON EARTH for 1K years, so it's silly to not believe He will bring His kingdom PHYSICALLY to earth.
     
    #52 robycop3, Aug 31, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  13. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus did not say this. Here's what he said:

    “And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

    “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

    “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

    “And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

    “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

    “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)
     
    #53 1689Dave, Aug 31, 2018
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,396
    Likes Received:
    672
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Some Scriptures are clearly symbolic, but why do men render such Scriptures as Jesus' Olivet Discourse to symbolic status when it's plainly LITERAL? The answer: So they can apply those Scriptures to some goofy false doctrine they'fe either invented themselves, or subscribed to.

    When in doubt, a passage of Scripture should be "taken" LITERALLY. Too much "symbolism" leads to incorrect "private interps".
     
    #54 robycop3, Aug 31, 2018
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,396
    Likes Received:
    672
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So, when jesus returns & reigns from jerusalem, He's gonna rule another kingdom????????????????????????????????????

    YYeeaahh, RRIIGGHHTT ! !
     
    #55 robycop3, Aug 31, 2018
  16. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    22,050
    Likes Received:
    1,858
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
     
    #56 church mouse guy, Aug 31, 2018
  17. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If we take the Olivet Discourse literally, it makes sense and harmonizes with the rest of scripture. This is the problem however, the hypothetical gap in Daniel ruins the flow of Matthew 24 and turns what already happened into something yet to happen in the distant future.
     
    #57 1689Dave, Aug 31, 2018
  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When he returns this universe explodes and the New Heavens and Earth emerge where he rules forever. This is the restoration of Israel (believers in Christ) that the whole of scripture points to.
     
    #58 1689Dave, Aug 31, 2018
  19. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The 1000 years are the binding of Satan. When they end Satan is loosed. They are not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when he is loosed. The saints rule under the same 1000 year symbol to the extent they bind Satan with the gospel from deceiving God's elect from all nations.
     
    #59 1689Dave, Aug 31, 2018
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Kingdom is here present in those who are saved by God, but the entire world system is still under snare of Satan, as the Second Coming event is when Jesus takes hands on/direct control over kingdoms of the world.
     
    #60 Yeshua1, Aug 31, 2018
Page 3 of 11
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...