The problem is that there are NO NT passages that support God totally has dosowned the Jews, and that He ceased to deal with them .
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Private interpretation of prophecy relating to Israel
- Thread starter Covenanter
- Start date
God deals with all nations, ethnicities, colours, languages & religions BY THE GOSPEL. That of course includes Jews.
Have you searched the Scriptures to support your statement?
Read John's warning to the Pharisees & Jewish leaders in Mat. 3, Jesus' words to them in John 8, Mat. 21-23, Peter's in Acts 3 & 4. e.g.
Mat. 21:43 ‘Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
They give absolutely no encouragement to the Jews to continue to trust in their Jewishness - their family pedigree from Abraham, Jewish traditions, even their temple worship. Even the secret enquirer Nicodemus was told -
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.
Praise the Lord he came to the light! As did Saul & others as recorded in Acts. Peter is very clear in Acts 3 -
22 For Moses said, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.”
If you are still thinking that the OC prophecies still apply literally to Israelis after Pentecost, read what Peter said -
24 ‘Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, “Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.” 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.’
Please don't tweet your private interpretation reply without careful consideration of the Scriptures cited.
Actually, YOURS is the private interp, as you try to make Scripture say what it doesn't say. God Himself told Zeke He's gonna restore the WHOLE House of israel, & so far, He's only restored Judah.
Judah calls itself "Israel" in the mistaken belief that they're all that's left of the original Israel, but the other tribes still exist, while now unaware of their true national ID. They're part of the WHOLE House of Israel God mentioned.
At the "first pentecost", those Jews still remained under Roman rule. They didn't suddenly become a sovereign nation. the only difference was that those who were saved became indwelt by the Holy Spirit, as all Christians now are, only He then manifested Himself thru each of them as proof of His indwelling.
But the beginning of God's prophesied rebirth of Israel began in May 1948 with the creation of the Jewish sovereign nation, which soon had to go to war & defeat a coalition of her enemies. DO YOU NOT BELIEVE GOD WAS BEHIND ALL THAT ? ?
History and reality have proven your private interp wrong.
And so all nations are blessed by the Jews thru Jesus, who, as a man, was a Jew. The first Christians were Jews. And there's no contradiction here with God's coming restoration of the literal, physical whole House of Israel as He said He's gonna do.
I don't know what "denomination" you follow, but they sure have some wacky ideas. We should all BELIEVE GOD AT HIS WORD & not try to add to it nor subtract from it, as He warned against. He said He's gonna restore the whole House of Israel, and we should believe Him!
NONE here are saying that trusting in their Jewishness saves any Jews, but that God has not forever decided to not with them as a people any longer, as some are saying!
Reformed Baptists such as myself and Charles Spurgeon held to God still having a dealing with the Jewish people at the second coming, so curious why he doesn't see that?
Because he appears to be doing what he accuses others of doing - MAKING A PRIVATE INTERP OF CERTAIN SCRIPTURES.
God plainly said He's gonna restore the WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and make it great. That, of course, includes many more people than just the Jews. God made those promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, & reiterated them thru several of His prophets. It's the 3rd-most-mentioned of God's promises in all Scripture, after those concerning Jesus, and the eternality of David's dynasty.
He's not gonna restore Israel because of themselves, not because they deserve it, but because He made those promises to their ancestors, and he wants to show the whole world that HIS WORD STANDS.
People reducing that doctrine to "symbolism" is a major theological error!
Charles Spurgeon, "The Restoration and Conversion of the Jews" (preaching from Ezekiel):
"I wish never to learn the art of tearing God’s meaning out of His own Words. If there is anything clear and plain, the literal sense and meaning of this passage—a meaning not to be spirited or spiritualized away—it must be evident that both the two and the ten tribes of Israel are to be restored to their own land and that a king is to rule over them."
"I wish never to learn the art of tearing God’s meaning out of His own Words. If there is anything clear and plain, the literal sense and meaning of this passage—a meaning not to be spirited or spiritualized away—it must be evident that both the two and the ten tribes of Israel are to be restored to their own land and that a king is to rule over them."
King Jesus, and he shows that not all of us reformed set all things A mil!
All of us at times are guilty of forcing the scriptures to say what out theology states must be true, but force feeding the plain and intended meaning for spiritualizing itall away?
@robycop3 @Yeshua1
Nice dialogue, but you (pl) have totally failed to address the Scriptures & literal interpretation I quoted in post #62 or the previous post #56 where I examined Eze 37 in context, giving both the significance for Ezekiel's contemporaries & as Messianic prophecy.
All you (pl) contribute is your own opinions. How about a Scriptural post, or a Scriptural refutation of my posts. If you don't post Scripture, your posts are private opinions.
Nice dialogue, but you (pl) have totally failed to address the Scriptures & literal interpretation I quoted in post #62 or the previous post #56 where I examined Eze 37 in context, giving both the significance for Ezekiel's contemporaries & as Messianic prophecy.
All you (pl) contribute is your own opinions. How about a Scriptural post, or a Scriptural refutation of my posts. If you don't post Scripture, your posts are private opinions.
The Ezekiel Passage refers to the time when all of the tribes of national israel would be unified under their messiah King, when did that happen? If you say at first coming, you would have to make symbolic and mean it refers to spiritual israel, but thepassage clearly speaks to national israel once again under God.
Let's look at the Scriptures, rather than accept a simplistic literal interpretation.
These chapters are indeed wonderful promises of a perfect resettlement of unified Israel in the promised land, in an eternal situation. We're still waiting, as the NC prophets look forward to the NH&NE. Neither the present occupation of the area, nor even a future millennium, ending as it does with worldwide rebellion, satisfy the terms of the prophecy.
We need to consider the context -
Ezekiel was prophesying to the exiles in Babylon. In 37:11 we see what they were thinking -
11 Then he said to me: ‘Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, “Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.”
So God gives Ezekiel the "dry bones" vision. Both chapters have much figurative language. In 37 it is explained in terms of the despair of the exiles - the promise of their return after 70 years. We can note that after the captivity of the northern kingdom, there was still a remnant of those tribes loyal to the Judah kingdom of Josiah -
2 Chr. 34:9 And when they came to Hilkiah the high priest, they delivered the money that was brought into the house of God, which the Levites that kept the doors had gathered of the hand of Manasseh and Ephraim, and of all the remnant of Israel, and of all Judah and Benjamin; and they returned to Jerusalem.
So God gives Ezekiel a further vision of the 2 sticks - Judah & Joseph - become one. The exiles will indeed return to the land after 70 years, in accordance with the word to Jeremiah. After double the time in the wilderness - Isaiah 40:2.
The concluding verses of the chapter are quoted in Rev. 21 in terms of the NH&NE.
Eze. 37:24 ‘“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there for ever, and David my servant will be their prince for ever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them for ever. 27 My dwelling-place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them for ever.”’
Rev. 21:1 Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling-place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death” or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.’
5 He who was seated on the throne said, ‘I am making everything new!’ Then he said, ‘Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.’
6 He said to me: ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
.......
22:16 ‘I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.’
17 The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come!’ Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Sadly the return ordered by Cyrus wasn't all they hoped for - God had told them through Daniel that the 70 years would be followed by 69x7 years before Messiah would come. In the middle of the final period of 7 years, Jesus was crucified, shedding the blood of the New Covenant that opened the way for full salvation for all who repented & were baptised in the name of Jesus. Many thousands of Israel welcomed the Gospel & recognised Jesus as the promised Davidic King. Palm Sunday & Pentecost.
Now we are in a time of God's calling & patience as sinners from all nations are saved by the Gospel & look forward to King Jesus to return for resurrection & judgment, & to establish the NH&NE. 2 Peter 3.
Ezeckiel 37:24 seems to be indicating that the time in question will be when "david", Jesus Himself, is ruling over restored israel at the second coming!
While the Jews, & a few other Israelis returned to their own land under Cyrus, they were not a sovereign nation. They were still under Medo-persian rule, followed by the Greex, then the Romans, til they were kicked outta their land again in 135-136 AD. And only since 1948 has Judah been a sovereign nation again, and the rest of Israel hasn't been represented at all.
And israel hasn't come close to occupying ALL the promised land, which extends from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates River.
And again, God said the bones in Zeke's vision represented the WHOLE House of Israel, not just the jews and a few members of the other tribes.
We can't ignore that Scripture & we can't ignore history. While the Jews have never lost their national identity, the rest of Israel has, far as man knows, but not according to GOD. HE knows who the rest of Israel is, and where they are.
then, there's God's promise to David that his dynasty would last FOREVER, that there'd ALWAYS be a descendant of David's ruling over Israelis somewhere. While some argue that Jesus fulfills that role, He isn't doing it yet. Remember, some Jews wanted to make Him their King just before His death, but he departed from them before they could act.
And God re-iterated His promise to David in Jeremiah 33, which was given not long before the Babylonians deposed Zedekiah & killed all his sons plus God had declared the former king Jeconiah and his descendants as being ineligible to occupy David's throne again.
But God had stated plural RULERS to Jeremiah, and it was hundreds of years before Jesus came, so where was David's throne from the end of Zedekiah til Jesus came?????????????? According to GOD, it HAD to be here!
So, rather than speculate where it may have been during this time, let's remember that GOD will reveal who the rest of Israel is, then, we'll know where David's throne has been for a long time. When Jesus returns, He will then occupy that throne as its permanent Occupant forever.
But neither Jesus, nor a descendant of David's is ruling modern Israel right now, so David's throne is elsewhere.
But when Jesus returns, He shall take over a throne (rulership) existing on earth right now.
And israel hasn't come close to occupying ALL the promised land, which extends from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates River.
And again, God said the bones in Zeke's vision represented the WHOLE House of Israel, not just the jews and a few members of the other tribes.
We can't ignore that Scripture & we can't ignore history. While the Jews have never lost their national identity, the rest of Israel has, far as man knows, but not according to GOD. HE knows who the rest of Israel is, and where they are.
then, there's God's promise to David that his dynasty would last FOREVER, that there'd ALWAYS be a descendant of David's ruling over Israelis somewhere. While some argue that Jesus fulfills that role, He isn't doing it yet. Remember, some Jews wanted to make Him their King just before His death, but he departed from them before they could act.
And God re-iterated His promise to David in Jeremiah 33, which was given not long before the Babylonians deposed Zedekiah & killed all his sons plus God had declared the former king Jeconiah and his descendants as being ineligible to occupy David's throne again.
But God had stated plural RULERS to Jeremiah, and it was hundreds of years before Jesus came, so where was David's throne from the end of Zedekiah til Jesus came?????????????? According to GOD, it HAD to be here!
So, rather than speculate where it may have been during this time, let's remember that GOD will reveal who the rest of Israel is, then, we'll know where David's throne has been for a long time. When Jesus returns, He will then occupy that throne as its permanent Occupant forever.
But neither Jesus, nor a descendant of David's is ruling modern Israel right now, so David's throne is elsewhere.
But when Jesus returns, He shall take over a throne (rulership) existing on earth right now.
From another thread -
When I started systematically reading the Bible I had one with a good centre column – lots of cross references. As @Just_Ahead indicated.
The principles of interpreting Scripture are stated as -
1. The need to be saved means also that we should be cautious about the source of Bible information & teaching. There are many deceivers.
2. “Literal interpretation” is a major point of contention, particularly concerning prophecy. We must at the same time remember that 3. “Context is king.”
What are the circumstances of the prophecy.
Who is the prophet addressing?
What is the response expected by the immediate hearers & how did they respond?
Is the prophecy quoted by others, particularly in the NC Scriptures & so applied by Jesus & his Apostles in an NC context?
Thus we come to an overriding interpretative principle -
The interpretation given by Jesus & the Apostles is the interpretation we should follow in the present Gospel age.
Therefore OC prophecy relating to the people of Israel applies primarily to Jesus & the Gospel believers of all nations – the children born of God. (John 1 & 3) & not the unbelieving descendants of Abraham.
1 Peter 1:10-12, 2:2-10, 2 Peter 1:16-21, 3.
We need to remember that the common people of Israel did NOT reject their Messiah – countless responded to the ministry of John, then Jesus himself with large crowds welcoming him into Jerusalem, hailing him as the Son of David & as coming in the name of the LORD. And Acts records that from Pentecost onwards, many thousands repented, believed, were baptised & formed the church of believers.
Therefore We should read OC prophecy in the light of NC fulfilment.
One more point, The perfect fulfilment of all prophecy, OC & NC will be at Jesus' final coming for resurrection & judgment, when he will establish the NH&NE.
When I started systematically reading the Bible I had one with a good centre column – lots of cross references. As @Just_Ahead indicated.
The principles of interpreting Scripture are stated as -
1. The need to be saved means also that we should be cautious about the source of Bible information & teaching. There are many deceivers.
2. “Literal interpretation” is a major point of contention, particularly concerning prophecy. We must at the same time remember that 3. “Context is king.”
What are the circumstances of the prophecy.
Who is the prophet addressing?
What is the response expected by the immediate hearers & how did they respond?
Is the prophecy quoted by others, particularly in the NC Scriptures & so applied by Jesus & his Apostles in an NC context?
Thus we come to an overriding interpretative principle -
The interpretation given by Jesus & the Apostles is the interpretation we should follow in the present Gospel age.
Therefore OC prophecy relating to the people of Israel applies primarily to Jesus & the Gospel believers of all nations – the children born of God. (John 1 & 3) & not the unbelieving descendants of Abraham.
1 Peter 1:10-12, 2:2-10, 2 Peter 1:16-21, 3.
We need to remember that the common people of Israel did NOT reject their Messiah – countless responded to the ministry of John, then Jesus himself with large crowds welcoming him into Jerusalem, hailing him as the Son of David & as coming in the name of the LORD. And Acts records that from Pentecost onwards, many thousands repented, believed, were baptised & formed the church of believers.
Therefore We should read OC prophecy in the light of NC fulfilment.
One more point, The perfect fulfilment of all prophecy, OC & NC will be at Jesus' final coming for resurrection & judgment, when he will establish the NH&NE.
Please excuse me for breaking in, but I wonder if you have heard of an Evangelical in the UK named Brain Edwards? He has helped here in the YEC ministry.
Brian Edwards
Yes, I've met him & heard him preach on a number of occasions, & read several of his books. He is very highly regarded. He took a leading role in the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches (fiec.org.uk) I have been a member of affiliated churches for 60 years.
You know, you are blessed--I have only seen him on tv and I bought one DVD of his done in Kentucky at the Creation Museum.
Like Covenanter, I have heard him preach on several occasions and have read a good number of his books. Excellent man!
He is quite elderly now, but still active SFAIK.