British take on American Christianity

[Martin Marprelate]

This is quite a thoughtful article, which I would encourage my American brothers here to read. I'm in no position to say how accurate it is; no doubt someone will tell me.
Are we seeing the end of institutional Christianity in America? | VirtueOnline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

 

[KenH]

Well wtitten. The points are salient, especially as they relate to many of my fellow evangelicals. David Lipscomb published a book on this subject many decades ago. I am not willing(at least not yet) to go as far as he suggests in non-participation in the political process, but he makes excellent points in his book on this subject.

David Lipscomb quoting B.U. Watkins in Lipscomb’s book, "On Civil Government: Its Origin, Mission, and Destiny, and the Christian's Relation to It":

“One of the signs of the great Apostacy, was the union of Church and State. Its chosen symbol was a woman upon the back of a seven headed and ten horned beast. It is almost uniformly admitted, among American Protestants, that this is a well chosen symbol to represent the absurd, and unnatural union of Church and State. It is generally conceded, that the woman represents the Church, and the beast the old Roman civil government. This being true, it would appear far more natural for her to be riding the beast, than for him to have his locomotion promoted by the help of the woman! When the State comes forward and proffers its assistance, and the Church voluntarily accepts of such help, it might be a question, which would be the most to blame; the Church for accepting, or the State for offering such assistance. But when the Church gives, unasked, her power to the beast, no excuse can reasonably be pleaded. If the State supporting the Church, is called an adulterous union, I am unable to see, why the union is not equally intimate, and criminal, when the Church supports the State, by participating in all its responsibilities. When the Church offers her fellowship, and co-operation in framing all the laws of the land, and in choosing its judicial and executive officers - when even her members refuse not to become legislators, and are even forward to fill all the offices of human governments, I cannot see, but the relation between church and State, is as intimate as ever, and just as illegal. Ezekiel chided the ancient Hebrews for seeking such union with the nations; and he compares Israel to a woman of the lowest infamy. It is exceedingly painful to me, to see how aptly these symbols of John and Ezekiel apply to modern professors.”

 

[church mouse guy]

The article has some good points. But the problem is not politics. What is happening in America and Canada and Australia is what has already happened in the UK, where I think that church attendance is down to about 5% of the population, correct me if I am wrong.

1, It is true that the mainline protestant churches are dying out. They adopted liberal theology and tied themselves to the welfare state. They ordained sodomites and women and said that sodomite marriage was okay. They denied all of the Christian doctrines from the virgin birth to the deity of Jesus. Here in Indy, the Episcopal Cathedral downtown on the Indianapolis Circle said recently erected a chain-link dog kennel and charged Trump with doing what Obama had done and said that everyone was holy and that we should have open borders (they are associated with Lily Pharmaceuticals and very old money people who want cheap labor.) The Presbyterian Church USA has become not only pro-sodomite but also vehemently anti-Semitic.

2. In the Roman Catholic Church, it is not just the priests who are raping men and boys but also the bishops and cardinals. Pope Francis, who claimed a policy of zero tolerance, has engaged in the coverup. Two priests were arrested in Miami over the weekend for having sex in public near the beach, and a priest in Los Angeles was fired for preaching that the church should be clean. It is not just the states who are looking into legal action but also the federal government who is thinking about a RICO case because of the national scope of the coverup and the Catholic sponsorship of gay seminarians from Mexico and Colombia for the pleasure of the bishops and cardinals. Based on a list of Catholic clergy who died of aids, it is thought that half of the American Catholic clergy could be sodomites. Russell Moore has tried to lead the SBC in the direction of Catholicism's notion that sodomy is normal and benign.

3. The so-called alliance with Trump was accidental. Hillary was unfit. What really drove the election was the recession, the unemployment, the drugs, the high-taxes. The Democrats wanted more of the Obama economy and many Americans were desperate for a way to earn a living. Hillary smeared those people, calling them deplorables and the Democrats still dislike those people.

4. Lastly, it is true that young people are fleeing the church, often in high school. Answers in Genesis and Ken Ham, who founded the Creation Museum and the Noah's Ark in Kentucky, has spent a lot of money surveying this disaster and has written and spoken about it often. He thinks that young people are not getting answers to their tough questions and are believing the Darwinism and other liberalism of the public schools.

Here are some reasons that young people are leaving according to Ham, who wrote a book in 2009 called Already Gone:

• “Learning about evolution when I went away to college.”
• “Rational thought makes religion go out the window.”
• “Lack of any sort of scientific or specific evidence of a creator.”
• “I just realized somewhere along the line that I didn’t really believe it.”
• “I’m doing a lot more learning, studying, and kind of making decisions myself rather than listening to someone else.”

Pew Research: Why Young People Are Leaving Christianity

 

[HankD]

Well wtitten. The points are salient, especially as they relate to many of my fellow evangelicals. David Lipscomb published a book on this subject many decades ago. I am not willing(at least not yet) to go as far as he suggests in non-participation in the political process, but he makes excellent points in his book on this subject.

David Lipscomb quoting B.U. Watkins in Lipscomb’s book, "On Civil Government: Its Origin, Mission, and Destiny, and the Christian's Relation to It":

“One of the signs of the great Apostacy, was the union of Church and State. Its chosen symbol was a woman upon the back of a seven headed and ten horned beast. It is almost uniformly admitted, among American Protestants, that this is a well chosen symbol to represent the absurd, and unnatural union of Church and State. It is generally conceded, that the woman represents the Church, and the beast the old Roman civil government. This being true, it would appear far more natural for her to be riding the beast, than for him to have his locomotion promoted by the help of the woman! When the State comes forward and proffers its assistance, and the Church voluntarily accepts of such help, it might be a question, which would be the most to blame; the Church for accepting, or the State for offering such assistance. But when the Church gives, unasked, her power to the beast, no excuse can reasonably be pleaded. If the State supporting the Church, is called an adulterous union, I am unable to see, why the union is not equally intimate, and criminal, when the Church supports the State, by participating in all its responsibilities. When the Church offers her fellowship, and co-operation in framing all the laws of the land, and in choosing its judicial and executive officers - when even her members refuse not to become legislators, and are even forward to fill all the offices of human governments, I cannot see, but the relation between church and State, is as intimate as ever, and just as illegal. Ezekiel chided the ancient Hebrews for seeking such union with the nations; and he compares Israel to a woman of the lowest infamy. It is exceedingly painful to me, to see how aptly these symbols of John and Ezekiel apply to modern professors.”

Not so much a governmental body (the beast) but a social philosophy of life called secular humanism?

Revelation 17
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Secular Humanism allows for individual religious beliefs (frowned upon) but they must be kept to one's self.

Your lifestyle is your own business - do what you will but harm none.

 

[JonShaff]

This is quite a thoughtful article, which I would encourage my American brothers here to read. I'm in no position to say how accurate it is; no doubt someone will tell me.
Are we seeing the end of institutional Christianity in America? | VirtueOnline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

I do not have a "Bird's eye view" of the situation. I know that Christians around me and throughout the state of Oklahoma are hungry for more real, intimate fellowship with God and each other. Institutionalized Christianity, Denominationalism is killing healthy fellowship. It needs to die. We need more organic fellowship--people participating in the ministry of the Word, More corporate prayer. There is a big "house church" movement going on. Where we fellowship isn't as important as how we fellowship. Church gatherings need to stop being a spectator sport. It must be participatory. I do believe in the 4-5 ministry gifts in Ephesians 4:11. We must start utilizing the gifts that Jesus Christ himself gave to the Church--these one-man dog and pony shows are not what Christian fellowship is all about.

 

[HankD]

.. We must start utilizing the gifts that Jesus Christ himself gave to the Church--these one-man dog and pony shows are not what Christian fellowship is all about.

Jon could you further describe the "one-man dog and pony show".

Just interested, not a trick question.

 

[JonShaff]

Jon could you further describe the "one-man dog and pony show".

Just interested, not a trick question.

Yes, when the pastor (and i'm a pastor) is the main focus of the service and ministry. He is the one visiting, calling, organizing, doing, working, speaking, ministering, praying, etc. We have formed a terrible divide of clergy and laity that is demonstrably unbiblical. We are all Priests and servants in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Revmitchell]

The pastor has a calling no one else has. Acts 20:28

The pastor has a standard no one else has. I Timothy 3:1-7

The pastor has a responsibility no one else has. Hebrew 13:17

If someone wants to call that a divide then their problem is with God.

 

[JonShaff]

The pastor has a calling no one else has. Acts 20:28

The pastor has a standard no one else has. I Timothy 3:1-7

The pastor has a responsibility no one else has. Hebrew 13:17

If someone wants to call that a divide then their problem is with God.

The Pastor is to EQUIP the people for the work of the ministry.

Edit--Actually it says, "Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors/Teachers"--they Equip the people for the work of the ministry.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Institutionalized Christianity, Denominationalism is killing healthy fellowship.

Excuse me but I believe that Baptists are unique to many other houses of worship

 

[church mouse guy]

Excuse me but I believe that Baptists are unique to many other houses of worship

Russell Moore is working on that, too.

 

[HankD]

Yes, when the pastor (and i'm a pastor) is the main focus of the service and ministry. He is the one visiting, calling, organizing, doing, working, speaking, ministering, praying, etc. We have formed a terrible divide of clergy and laity that is demonstrably unbiblical. We are all Priests and servants in the Kingdom of God.

Yes, I totally agree.

 

[church mouse guy]

Michael Voris with the Church Militant, a Catholic lay organization in the Detroit Area, published this short YouTube video a few minutes ago about the Roman Catholic Church in America:

 

[McCree79]

. Russell Moore has tried to lead the SBC in the direction of Catholicism's notion that sodomy is normal and benign.

You got proof?
Dr. Moore has called them to repentance on numerous occasions. Saying things such as
"what repentance looks like in this case is to flee immorality (1 Cor. 6:18), which means to cease such sexual activity in obedience to Christ (1 Cor. 6:11)."
Should the Church View Homosexuality Like Divorce? - Russell Moore.

Russell Moore is a signatory and Co-Sponser(Through the ERLC) of the Nashville statement stating clearly the sin of homosexual activity.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

 

[HankD]

I use to believe that celibacy was the problem (causal) and I still do but with a different focus than causal.

The vow of celibacy ATTRACTS people who have given in to sexual perversions.

Now,because of the required vow of celibacy they need not answer the embarrassing (and possibly incriminating) question "why aren't you married?"

 

[liafailrock]

A well written article that sees many of the same things I see. I think the institutionalized church will be around as a formal facade for awhile yet, but not as an agent for those seeking a real relationship and understanding with God. Thus, one thing I see are house churches and private bible studies springing up. There are two things I want to highlight about the article. First I'll quote and then comment:

Trump has fired up evangelicals so much so that they see him as a king Cyrus figure saving America from liberals, progressives and socialists aimed at undermining the constitution, that would have created a Supreme Court subverting religious freedom.

And by extension he moved the embassy to Jerusalem, so many Jewish people there see President Trump as a sort of Cyrus figure as well perhaps paving the way to rebuild the temple. However, some of us "fringe" and house church types see even more than a King Cyrus. Trump also is a type of King Jeroboam II of Israel who although wicked, he outwardly conformed to some religious reform as well as made the economy prosperous for over 40 years. Trump, being a business man, is operating the same way, almost exactly. So, what's the point of Jeroboam II in addition to a Cyrus figure? I think that this is history repeating itself, and as we experienced before, perhaps this could be the beginning of the end for the USA and indicative of end times (therefore a last chance to repent and be watchful!). IMO (and my opinion only), the Cyrus figure is more applicable for the Jews, and the Jeroboam II figure is more applicable to the USA.

The confluence of right wing politics with conservative theology is almost uniquely American. As sociologist David Moberg argues in The Great Reversal, prior to the twentieth-century, evangelicals were leaders in progressive social reform movements. Many of them looked not just to convert souls, but change the world for the better, viewing progressive (for the time) social politics as the best way to do so.

And indeed this teaching has been going on for some time now. Older is not better. It seems the (unbiblical) gospel is to preach Christ, have your souls saved, make this world a better place (and thus is defined as the Kingdom of God), then die and go to heaven and that's where it ends. The real gospel is that of the Kingdom, where those converted now are to become Kings and priests of the coming Kingdom of God to help rule and reign to bring God to the rest of the world. Grant it, those called now to salvation practice the principles of the Kingdom of God, but more as a training ground for the real thing later. That's when the rest of the world sees the King and Kingdom, otherwise, what's the point of Christ's return if it was all "here and now"? And along that line, sad to say, when I ask some Christian people that very question, they are blank as if to say, "He's returning?" That's more important than the cross and they missed that. The cross was to fix what was broken so that we can continue on the way it was supposed to be -- that coming Kingdom is the ultimate purpose. The car was running, it broke down and the mechanic came to fix it so that it can run again, not to adore only the fix job and miss the race.

 

[church mouse guy]

You got proof?
Dr. Moore has called them to repentance on numerous occasions. Saying things such as
"what repentance looks like in this case is to flee immorality (1 Cor. 6:18), which means to cease such sexual activity in obedience to Christ (1 Cor. 6:11)."
Should the Church View Homosexuality Like Divorce? - Russell Moore.

Russell Moore is a signatory and Co-Sponser(Through the ERLC) of the Nashville statement stating clearly the sin of homosexual activity.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

None of this should surprise anyone that Revoice has included Branden Polk as a presenter at the conference in July. What should surprise us is the relationship Branden Polk has with the President of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC), Russell Moore.

The calamitous connection to Russell Moore

Arrowhead Advising LLC has performed contractual work for the ERLC strategically advising Russel Moore on both the 2017 Christ Centered Parenting Conference and the April 2018 MLK/50 Conference.

Russell Moore continues to be advised by Arrowhead Advising LLC on the ERLC’s Prison Reform Bill promotion.

It would be highly suspicious for Moore to claim that he’s unfamiliar with the facts and that he’s not working hand in hand with sex perverts knowing the background of Revoice and the friendship of Branden Polk and Todrick Hall. Why do Southern Baptists continue to send money to this progressive entity who partners with people like this who have an obvious agenda?

Revoice Conference: Connecting the Dots from Russell Moore to Drag Queens, RuPaul

Remember, Moore had a pastor thrown out of the SBC national convention because he asked him about Revoice.

 

[McCree79]

]

Remember, Moore had a pastor thrown out of the SBC national convention because he asked him about Revoice.

No, he was removed from a restricted area.


Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Russell Moore is working on that, too.

I could care less about southern baptists. And they all talk like they got marbles in their mouth(Trump quote)

 

[OnlyaSinner]

Jon could you further describe the "one-man dog and pony show".

Just interested, not a trick question.

Our pastor when we lived in northern Maine (early 1980s) called this "pastor-papacy", where the pastor not only took on all the duties described in #7 but refused to let others participate in them, running the church like a petty dictator. Our pastor opined that this practice was the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, mentioned in 2 of the 7 letters to the churches in Rev. 2,3. (Other commentaries I've seen hold that mixing truth with error was the Nicolaitans' failing.)