I Believe In Free Will

Can any stop/block the determined Will of God from getting fulfilled?

 

I fail to see where you even defined “free will” n your argument. That’s probably because you didn’t. You simply jump to some conclusions about it, such as it ended with Adam in the garden and with the use of a bit of a strawman play with this semantic ambiguity while suggesting that someone who believes man has “free will” would be opposed to God changing one’s heart and do away with the work of the Holy Spirit with this so-called and undefined “free will’.

Apparently, it is easier for Calvinists to defend their Deterministic views of Predestination through the use of semantic ambiguity with “free will”, I see this tired and fruitless attempt all the time, but…you are simply demonstrating that “you do not understand your opposition’s view” and frankly, I do not believe you could logically and biblically defend your Deterministic view as opposed to an accurate definition of your opponent’s view of free will without reaching theological fatalism.

That said, I really don’t have time or desire to force you into structuring your argument that you now wish to sit out, sit back and watch the “fun” from the sidelines. But while I am here I would like to suggest that if you are going to start to thread why don’t you put a just a wee bit of foundation to your premise and start your argument by defining the human attribute of “free will” which you claim that Adam lost?

For instance, Adam used his “free will” to choose to disobey God, on this I believe we would agree. When did he (Adam/Mankind) lose this attribute of “free will”?

As a card carrying LFWer I will give you my definition of “free will” – “the God given attributes of sense, reason and intellect which facilitates human volition”.

So using my definition, exactly when did God take these attributes away? Did God recreate mankind to not have these attributes??? Did God get the design of His creatures wrong in the first and have some sort of redo?

Now, if you can manage to come up with a time as per my definition that man had his “free will” taken away, then I would ask you is, How does God truly and righteously judge His creatures that do not have this attribute.

Personally, I think you will have a lot of problems not only trying to refute my definition which in effect forces you to drop the strawman, but if you deny man has this “free will” according to my definition you will then have the problem evil being in the world not by the will of man who gained the added attribute of the knowledge of good and evil, that he “acquired” in the garden, but you would have man without the attribute of “human volition” (the ability to choose) leaving evil to be determined by God Himself!

Seem to me you have the free will to chose between 2 theological choices here, either man has free will or everything man does is predetermined by God which voids true judgment, makes Him responsible for those who choose evil and leads straight to theological fatalism.

Actually, I suppose there is a 3rd choice, you could crawl under a rock and sit back and enjoy the senseless unstructured circular bickering here over an undefined premise that you fail or refuse to recognize in order to start your “discussion’…

 

Calvinists do not see God forcing sinners to be lost by rejecting jesus, as He allows them their "free will" to deny Him every time!

 

Haha! So Tyndale you come across like a Emperor from the ancient times who set up gladiators in the Colosseum and want to perch yourself up on a high chair and watch all the fun. Nope. Ain't going to happen. We're going to drag you down from there and get you in the game....remember now....you said it yourself....You don't have FREE WILL.

I'm curious as to how you explain that how you as a Christian even have the capacity to sin then. Did God make you do it? Well doesn't seem you're going for that based on something in your OP. Did the devil make you do it? Or how about if you're married your spouse? You know Adam tried to point the finger at Eve saying the woman you gave me Lord! Blamed the wife AND God! Not himself though. So who's the one guilty for sin you might commit? And you didn't do that by an act of your free will?

I don't think anyone denies God isn't convicting, and encouraging sinners to repent in order to bring them to salvation. But they still have free choice yeah or nay. But you have it that he changed your heart...well why the need to tell people to repent then? All the aspects of what repent would mean would have already taken place in the change.

 

Well that'd all depend on what you mean by determined Will of God. If someone were to say to God we're not allowing you to create the Heavens and the Earth I'd say no. If someone were to say that they don't want Jesus to come back doesn't matter what they want. Things like that are determined but it's a whole different discussion when suggesting if you are that everything under the sun we see and experience has been determined. Not so.

 

Did God "force" Paul to get saved?

 

How free is that will when the sinful nature gets in the way and blinds sinners to the truth that they need the Father to reveal His Son to them so they can believe in Him?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

The Father knows who is seeking Him from those that are not, but prefer their evil deeds rather than be reproved of them.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit so can any one argue against the notion that our believing in Him is a work of God?

 

No! Paul said himself that God's grace towards him had not been in vain for he labored more than others....which infers he could have been slack in his labor AND he encouraged others not to receive the grace of God in vain. 2 Cor 6:1 No being forced to serve God no irresistible grace making people to do anything.

 

As for free will of a sinner.. Paul said it best when describing his struggle against sin under the law of the Old Covenant.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

Paul NEVER state dor inferrdthough that He could have decided to reject Jesus to save Him, as he was call of God and was going to be the Apostle to the Gentiles regardless!

 

I couldn't help but notice that you never go beyond stating your definition. There was no real attempt to show its agreement with scripture. Instead, you demand the debate happen according to your terms--which have not been proven by you. This is the very definition of "Begging the Question."

The Archangel

 

Who said sinners were blinded to the truth when God brought to men the truth and the light. Jesus said to ALL, I am the way the TRUTH and the light! and his words were empowered. Jesus didn't say men rejected him because they didn't understand the truth. He said they reject him because they'd rather walk in darkness and not light. The light strips away all excuses that you can't understand.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. John 1:9

 

If God left all of us to our own desires and "free will", due to our sin natures and condition, we would all here stayed lost!

 

And that's why one should not allow Calvinists to define the terms either. What I see from most Calvinists is that they build their arguments that one with free will should be able to achieve anything. Not true and as for me I always seek to challenge them in defining it this way. Free will simply means being able to choose without the decision of whatever having been planted within you.

 

So why do Christians sin having a new nature? The fact is will isn't necessary connected to nature. There's a lot of people who want something better for their lives but don't have the power to do it. Just ask many people bound by many various vices. Their wills wants something different.

Well yes I'm sure we stand by our convictions as strong as you do.

So why do some of you people say the most insulting things to people that don't agree with you? You yourself would claim not knowing the truth is not our fault. Where's the prayers like Jesus prayed, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" ?? Of I forgot. You don't see any purpose in us being forgiven even though we don't know what we do. So as long as you get yours everything is fine?

 

Well, you’ve missed the point. Defining of terms isn’t the issue; defining of terms is a very good thing. Benjamin is not simply defining terms. He’s giving his definition while giving no mind to demonstrating its truthfulness. Assuming something to be true without demonstrating it to be so is, by definition, “begging the question” and it is a logical fallacy.

The Archangel


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I see how you applied that verse but because scripture cannot go against scripture, and so you have to be applying that verse wrong.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

If that is not enough, see His reason for speaking in parables below.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.