Featured Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

To place the Presence of Christ as being located in the sacraments is to preach receiving another Jesus to receive.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

In regards to the New Covenant, scripture has the Holy Spirit significantly and specifically located as dwelling in us so that we can test the spirits outside of us as the spirit of the antichrist. It is because of the New Covenant is why the Holy Spirit's Presence is no longer to be felt outside of the believers in the worship place when our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The Person of the Holy Spirit is not the means by Whom the Father & the Son are omnipresence, because they dwell in us too.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

God is a Spirit is God being omnipresence in John 4:24 is Jesus answering the women at the well as to where to worship the Father at; neither at their mountains nor in Jerusalem at the Temple but by coming to the only way of the Son, ( John 14:6 ) they worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

To remove that line of discernment in testing the spirits is to remove the words of apostle John's words in how to test the spirits.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world...…4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The measure of the Holy Spirit in us is not as a gas gauge, because our relationship with the Father & the Son is by abiding in Him and His words by walking in the light as the Son had done. So there is no little bit abiding in Him nor a lot of abiding in Him. We are either abiding in Him or not, even though He is within us always as a testimony always that we have been saved by Him.

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Anything coming from the Catholic catechism would be, as talking out of both sides of their mouths to what we believe.

Sticking to the scripture in reproving the notion that Christ's Presence is in the worship place at communion is similar to how Catholic receive Him in the elements in regards to this warning.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

In regards to the New Covenant, scripture has the Holy Spirit significantly and specifically located as dwelling in us so that we can test the spirits outside of us as the spirit of the antichrist. It is because of the New Covenant is why the Holy Spirit's Presence is no longer to be felt outside of the believers in the worship place when our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The Person of the Holy Spirit is not the means by Whom the Father & the Son are omnipresence, because they dwell in us too.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

God is a Spirit is God being omnipresence in John 4:24 is Jesus answering the women at the well as to where to worship the Father at; neither at their mountains nor in Jerusalem at the Temple but by coming to the only way of the Son, ( John 14:6 ) they worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

To remove that line of discernment in testing the spirits is to remove the words of apostle John's words in how to test the spirits.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world...…4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The measure of the Holy Spirit in us is not as a gas gauge, because our relationship with the Father & the Son is by abiding in Him and His words by walking in the light as the Son had done. So there is no little bit abiding in Him nor a lot of abiding in Him. We are either abiding in Him or not, even though He is within us always as a testimony always that we have been saved by Him.

Placing Christ's Presence in the worship place while holding communion is not of the truth nor of the faith in Jesus Christ.

 

Let's assume that there were non-Catholic churches before Protestants, in spite of the possibility of revisionist historians, has the non-Catholic churches before Protestant kept themselves from the terms and works of Catholicism from being adopted in history? If they use the term "sacrament" in any official document, as well as in communion service.... then not coming out of the Catholic Church as the Protestants have done, doesn't matter.

Also...have they kept themselves from the influence of the modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. by its introduction of the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son?

 

How does the Church has authority? By the scriptures. That is the only way they can prove anything or reprove any one. The scripture under the Old Covenant was the final authority for how heretics or false prophets, sabbath day violators, and adulterers were stoned to death. The consequence is not the same under the New Covenant, but scripture still has authority.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

So it is more than just profitable when scripture also applies towards reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, and so the only way scripture can do that for those in authority is to be the sole authority.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

But what happens when Bible versions do not all say the same thing? The golden rule is ; the truth in one part of scripture cannot be against the truth in the other part of scripture; find the Bible version that aligns all truths in scripture.

Example; if most modern Bible versions has John 16:13 testifying to the truth on the only way that the Holy Spirit will speak and that is by speaking what He hears because He cannot speak on His own authority or on His own accord, or on His own initiative, or speak of Himself or speak from Himself, then Romans 8:26-27 in modern Bibles that err by testifying that the Holy Spirit can utter His intercessions out loud.. when the KJV testifies that not even His groanings can be uttered, which means the Spirit cannot use God's gift of tongues to pray by, those who seek the truth by the authority of the scripture would do best by relying only on the KJV.

Another example; when all Bibles testify to John 6:30-35 of Jesus being the bread of life that gives life to the world, and yet most Bible versions implies that the Spirit gives life in 2 Corinthians 3:6 even though a few modern version retains the small "s" in 2 Corinthians 3:6 as well as in John 6:63 from which comes the error in the modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. , which source scripture is correct? Even Jesus said which scripture to pay attention to, because scripture is to testify of the Son so that sinners come to Him for life in John 5:39-40.

Jesus even prophesied that there will be a time when believers will need His help to discern which Bible version loved Him and His words to keep His words and the words of His disciples as the Father testifies that those who do not love Him, will not keep His words as declared in John 14:23-24 & John 15:20. Two source documents are Antioch where His disciples were first called Christians and Alexandria where poetic licensing and Gnosticism had been known to exist. The proof is by how the source origin decline from the testimony of the Son or not; and obviously to me, the Alexandrian has declined from the testimony of the Son whereas Antioch has not, but if the Lord cannot prove that to you by those 2 examples... maybe later on He will show the necessity for discerning good & evil in keeping the faith which is the good fight as well as keeping the words that do not decline from the testimony of the Son of those who loves Him.

Psalm 119:157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies. 158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.

 

No. You are referring to Catholic misapplying scripture and thus not rightly dividing the word of truth in doing so.

An idol is making something by the hands of men and saying it is more than what it is, a living god.

Psalm 115:2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? 3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

So that is how you know you are applying His words wrong to mean.

Your first reference is correct, but symbolically as they are actually eating bread, but the eating is to be done in remembrance of Him; not as receiving Him again nor as that one time sacrifice for sin made present to be received again in communion.

Catholic took scripture out of context that was directed towards unbelieving Jews as they still could not comprehend in John 6:30-36 on how to receive the bread of life was by believing in Him. John 6th chapter was never about communion, but about how we are saved by coming to & believing in Jesus Christ as stated plainly in John 6:35 for why they still disbelieve in John 6:36 They took Jesus words spoken of in sarcasm because the Jews could not get beyond eating the way their fathers ate manna.

See if you can see the gospel message in His words rather than out of context verses used by Catholics.

John 6: 26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If He has not caused the increase yet, maybe this will in seeing the Lord resorting to sarcasm because of their unbelief.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

So if you apply His words in John 6th chapter still to be about communion, then in according to John 6:35, they would only have to receive Him one time in communion and never hunger nor thirst for that communion again, but wait. Communion is to be done in remembrance of Him; not for receiving Him for eternal life since salvation is by coming to & believing in Him.

Therefore ergo Catholics are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Scripture again reproves how you are applying Malachi 1:11 to mean, because our God is in Heaven by His one time offering on the cross that is pure; not in the offering of bread at communion which communion is to be done in remembrance of His pure offering as proclaiming the Lord's death in remembrance; not as if He is dying again, making His body present idol wise.

Psalm 115:2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? 3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

 

For what purpose? As referring to that person as the sole authority over scripture? Not happening. Only Jesus is perfect.

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees......11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Galatians 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Catholicism developed slowly over time.. so like a lobster in a slowly boiling pot, no one was shocked until the Protestant Reformation came about when scripture was more readily accessible and available to be read outside from the pulpit.

That is how most believers are when going to church today; they trust their pastor to never lead them astray; they never prove every thing taught by the scripture to make sure nothing is going against scripture of the N.T. to prove that they rightly dividing the word of truth.

Scripture were not numbered by chapter & verses too, but gospel is a word used in scripture; so not an original term like sacrament and "Eucharist".

See post # 30 in this thread in case you missed it, but that is how you can tell which source origin loved Him and His words by how they have kept the truths in His words as aligned with the rest of scripture of the N.T. and also by not declining from the testimonies of the Son in scripture.

 

Brother @atpollard consider this truth;

When Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit, does He not defer from Himself by referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit as "He" or "Him"?

So when Jesus use the pronoun " I ", Who is He testifying of in making this promise? Himself, the Son.

So then what is Jesus talking about? You can check the Greek word from which "midst" was derived from, you may find the definition as meaning middle or in between.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

"from meta - meta 3326; middle (as an adjective or (neuter) noun):--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid(-day, -night), midst, way."

So in context:

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus is referring to His future role as our only Mediator between God and man in regards to prayer; He is not testifying in being a spook among the assembly of 2 or 3 believers when praying.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The Son of God is our only access to God the Father by that throne of grace.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

This is the will of God because when Jesus gives our intercessions in searching our hearts, the Spirit's silent intercessions by knowing His mind, and His own intercessions to the Father, when the Father says "Yes" to any of those intercessions, the Son answers the prayers for why He, alone is between us so that the father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth....20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So Matthew 18:20 when read in context of Matthew 18:19-20, is about Jesus serving as our Mediator when 2 or 3 gather to pray.

 

I have to wonder if the emphasis was that great when preaching the gospel, but I recognize it is an ordinance for believers to follow, but not sure if newly saved believers joining an assembly are queried to make sure they had water baptism done.

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...… 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

So I am not sure whether a church has to be identified with all believers that has joined as all water baptized or not. New converts... I can see that happening in the mission field, but yet, according to Paul, he did not place emphasis on this. It seems logical when there are not always bodies of water around whenever Paul has preached the gospel at. The same would be true for the other disciples too, although I can imagine that is where sprinkling comes from as a substitute, but that is an assumption on my part.

Historically, I can believe a church being non-Catholic already existed before the Protestant Reformation came about with more non-Catholic churches, but has it kept out the terms and practices that has originated from the Catholic church like sacraments and Eucharist and such practice as looking for the Holy Spirit in the worship place to come visit?

I have to wonder.