Do Baptists Seek Presence of Holy Spirit in Worship?

[1689Dave]

You are denying Him in you every time you claim the spirit that visits or manifest in the worship place is the Spirit of Christ.

Since Jesus Christ is in you always, and thus He is already in the worship place by being in you as always present, then that spirit that "visit" to make its presence known is not omnipresence and thus not God, now is it?

“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18:20) Is it possible you do not understand this? And are building a case around your misunderstanding?

 

[37818]

Do read what that verse is actually saying.

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

That is the same thing as saying this:

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.....15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

That is the difference between the real indwelling Holy Spirit and how the world sees spirits visiting them in a place.

The contention is that for the Holy Spirit to be present in the worship place, He would not be visiting or coming then if He is already there in being omnipresence.

But the Holy Spirit does not need to be felt in the worship place when He is omnipresence in us since our salvation.

So that spirit which comes into the worship place to be felt is not the Holy Spirit nor the actual omnipresence of God.

Acts 17:28 refers to everyone saved and lost. "For we are also His offspring" is what the pagan poet wrote which Paul cites.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18:20) Is it possible you do not understand this? And are building a case around your misunderstanding?

When has Jesus ever referred to the Holy Spirit as " I " ?

The Son always defers from Himself when referring to the Holy Spirit or the Father by the use of the pronouns "he" or "him".

When Jesus says "there am I" , He is not referring to the Holy Spirit, now is He?

Jesus is referring to His future role as our Mediator in being in between us and the Father when it comes to prayer. That is what He meant when He said "there am I in the midst of them" when you take verse 20 with verse 19 .

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

B

Acts 17:28 refers to everyone saved and lost. "For we are also His offspring" is what the pagan poet wrote which Paul cites.

That is not true. Read it in context; the offsprings that the poets were referring to is how we are of one family; one blood; the human race.

Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Paul went on to explain a different kind of offspring and that is being the offspring of God.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Because of verse 32, I understand that the poets were only talking about the bloodline, but scripture gives a specific way for how only believers in Jesus Christ are the offsprings of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So you are misreading Acts 17:28 because the lost are not the offsprings of God until they believe in Jesus Christ and in His resurrection.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

So the unbelievers, those that have never believed in Him, are not saved until they do believe in Him to be born again.

 

[37818]

B


That is not true. Read it in context; the offsprings that the poets were referring to is how we are of one family; one blood; the human race.

Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Paul went on to explain a different kind of offspring and that is being the offspring of God.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Because of verse 32, I understand that the poets were only talking about the bloodline, but scripture gives a specific way for how only believers in Jesus Christ are the offsprings of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So you are misreading Acts 17:28 because the lost are not the offsprings of God until they believe in Jesus Christ and in His resurrection.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

So the unbelievers, those that have never believed in Him, are not saved until they do believe in Him to be born again.

God is invisible and omnipresent. He is the uncaused existence in which all caused existence exist. All things are in God, and cannot not be. Not being part of God. It is that God is omnipresent. Get that? Everyone is standing in the presence of the Holy Righteous God. Everyone.and everything are in God's presence. But the whole of creation is not part of God. Understand the distinction?

 

[HopefulNChrist]

God is invisible and omnipresent.

The Invisible God Has An Image That Can Be Seen

He is the uncaused existence in which all caused existence exist. All things are in God, and cannot not be. Not being part of God. It is that God is omnipresent. Get that?

No, because it is misleading, especially when you are insinuating that unbelievers are saved in your previous post.

Let scripture better explain what you are trying to say but correctly.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made..... 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Everyone is standing in the presence of the Holy Righteous God. Everyone.and everything are in God's presence. But the whole of creation is not part of God. Understand the distinction?

In regards to the New Covenant, God dwells always in us; as omnipresence is applied here; but that spirit that comes and visits in the worship place and falls on believers in giving them a sign by that visitation, cannot be considered omnipresence nor of God. Do you see how you can test the spirits now in regards to 1 John 4:1-4 ?

 

[1689Dave]

When has Jesus ever referred to the Holy Spirit as " I " ?

The Son always defers from Himself when referring to the Holy Spirit or the Father by the use of the pronouns "he" or "him".

When Jesus says "there am I" , He is not referring to the Holy Spirit, now is He?

Jesus is referring to His future role as our Mediator in being in between us and the Father when it comes to prayer. That is what He meant when He said "there am I in the midst of them" when you take verse 20 with verse 19 .

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

When can you have the Son without having the Father and the Holy Spirit too?

 

[37818]

The Invisible God Has An Image That Can Be Seen

I make no such insinuation regarding unbelievers. They are not saved as yet. God by the Person of the Holy Spirit indwells believers. That is not the same as everything being "in" God's pres


No, because it is misleading, especially when you are insinuating that unbelievers are saved in your previous post.

Let scripture better explain what you are trying to say but correctly.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made..... 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



In regards to the New Covenant, God dwells always in us; as omnipresence is applied here; but that spirit that comes and visits in the worship place and falls on believers in giving them a sign by that visitation, cannot be considered omnipresence nor of God. Do you see how you can test the spirits now in regards to 1 John 4:1-4 ?

God's image is His Son (John 1:18; John 14:9).

There is a difference between everything and everyone being in God"s omnipresence (Acts 17:28) and God indwelling the believer by way of the Person of His Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9; Romans 8:16; 1 John 5:12).

 

[HopefulNChrist]

When can you have the Son without having the Father and the Holy Spirit too?

You are not hearing His words and so you are not hearing mine. I cannot help you understand His words; only Jesus can, so ask Him... now.

Ask Him how to apply the testing of the spirits in 1 John 4:1-4 for why the Holy Spirit would not bother to manifest in the worship place when He is already in the believers since they had been saved..

 

[HopefulNChrist]

God's image is His Son (John 1:18; John 14:9).

Read this OP at the thread at this link for the proper application of John 1:18

Jesus Was/Is the God Men Had Seen Before His Incarnation

There is a difference between everything and everyone being in God"s omnipresence (Acts 17:28) and God indwelling the believer by way of the Person of His Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9; Romans 8:16; 1 John 5:12).

As long as you acknowledged that God is not IN the unbelievers until they believe in Him to be saved as dwelling in them forever.

 

[1689Dave]

You are not hearing His words and so you are not hearing mine. I cannot help you understand His words; only Jesus can, so ask Him... now.

Ask Him how to apply the testing of the spirits in 1 John 4:1-4 for why the Holy Spirit would not bother to manifest in the worship place when He is already in the believers since they had been saved..

How do you tests spirits or anything without knowing what scripture says? Do you have "vibes" giving you the inside skinny on what you hear?

 

[HopefulNChrist]

How do you tests spirits or anything without knowing what scripture says? Do you have "vibes" giving you the inside skinny on what you hear?

Ask Jesus about 1 John 4:1-4 in how to test the spirits. I can't do it for you.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[1689Dave]

Ask Jesus about 1 John 4:1-4 in how to test the spirits. I can't do it for you.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

You are testing the spirits the same way I do. Using scripture.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

You are testing the spirits the same way I do. Using scripture.

Prove it by how you apply 1 John 4:4 because you have been arguing against it plainly enough. If you can't, then ask Jesus.

 

[1689Dave]

Prove it by how you apply 1 John 4:4 because you have been arguing against it plainly enough. If you can't, then ask Jesus.

“Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.” (1 John 4:4) What do you want me to prove by it?

 

[HopefulNChrist]

“Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.” (1 John 4:4) What do you want me to prove by it?

Ask Jesus this question in testing the spirits;

Jesus, in this warning not to believe every spirit but test them, am I to test the spirit that are outside of me as not the Holy Spirit by remembering that He is in me and greater in me than the spirit in the world because of this?

 

[37818]

Read this OP at the thread at this link for the proper application of John 1:18

Jesus Was/Is the God Men Had Seen Before His Incarnation

Jesus was a man who was also the Son of God making Him equal with God (John 5:18). And before He became man (John 1:14) He was both "with God" and "was God" (John 1:1-2). And He is the sole cause of all creation (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17).

The Son of God is who was seen (John 1:18; Genesis 12:7; Isaiah 6:5; etc.)

As long as you acknowledged that God is not IN the unbelievers until they believe in Him to be saved as dwelling in them forever.

What did I explain? Being in God is not the same as God being in the believer (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 John 5:12; 2 John 1:9).

God is invisible and omnipresent. God is the uncaused existence in which all that exists exists.

Either one knows God and has eternal life (John 17:3) or one are yet lost (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Jesus was a man who was also the Son of God making Him equal with God (John 5:18). And before He became man (John 1:14) He was both "with God" and "was God" (John 1:1-2). And He is the sole cause of all creation (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17).

The Son of God is who was seen (John 1:18; Genesis 12:7; Isaiah 6:5; etc.)

What did I explain? Being in God is not the same as God being in the believer (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 John 5:12; 2 John 1:9).

God is invisible and omnipresent. God is the uncaused existence in which all that exists exists.

Either one knows God and has eternal life (John 17:3) or one are yet lost (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

God the Father has an image also from which the request to make man in "our" image and "our likeness" came from.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

When the Father agreed to the request of the Son, then as the One God, God created man in His image.

Jesus has seen God the Father that men had not seen yet.

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

One day Jesus said we will ask the Father directly ourselves, showing Him to us in Heaven, and not need Jesus to ask Him for us.

John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.



Just sharing an FYI with you.

 

[37818]

God the Father has an image also from which the request to make man in "our" image and "our likeness" came from.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

When the Father agreed to the request of the Son, then as the One God, God created man in His image.

Jesus has seen God the Father that men had not seen yet.

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

One day Jesus said we will ask the Father directly ourselves, showing Him to us in Heaven, and not need Jesus to ask Him for us.

John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.



Just sharing an FYI with you.

The Son of God is God's image. That has been what I have argued (John 1:18; Genesis 12:7; Isaiah 6:5; etc).

 

[HopefulNChrist]

The Son of God is God's image. That has been what I have argued (John 1:18; Genesis 12:7; Isaiah 6:5; etc).

Okay. Making sure we are on the same page there. brother. I know we are not always saying the same thing nor sharing in the same judgment, but just wanted to be on the same page there before continuing back to the topic at hand.