The Great Irony

I don’t mean to overwhelm the board with different issues surrounding the same topic, but an Administrator renewed my interest in an overreaching topic. Being one of those single minded type of guys - one of those people to whom holding two concurrent thoughts is like walking and chewing gum at the same time , I can’t help myself but indulge. Actually, we typically have numerous discussions along the same trajectory….so that was just an offhand icebreaker.

Within the context of Penal Substitution Theory another member had commented that God is not abusing another but is in effect taking punishment upon Himself. I agree that this is ultimately the design of the Theory (and this is why arguments of “divine child abuse” are contrary to actually addressing the Theory).

The great problem (to be solved) of Penal Substitution Theory is how God can deal with human sin and yet still justify men without making God unjust. Man has disobeyed God, treating God as if He were man’s equal….or worse….by elevating man’s will over God’s. Man has treated God as unholy and this is an eternal offense because God is an eternally holy and just God.

The great solution of Penal Substitution is that God Himself became man in order to take upon Himself the punishment due mankind. This way God fulfills the requirements of divine justice by punishing Christ (essentially by punishing Himself….as Y1 says – God punching Himself) for man’s disobedience. Having expended his wrath God is free to forgive man (men to whom no more wrath is due).

The great reversal of Penal Substitution Theory is that God the Son is obedient to God the Father while God the Father treats God the Son as if He were unholy.

The great irony of Penal Substitution Theory is that in order to save men from their sins the Father effectively becomes the chief of sinners against the Son and unrighteous under His own law.

 

The Theory demands that what man did to God the Father does to the Son.

But in truth, the focus of redemption is God - ALWAYS God - not man. That's something Penal Substitution Theory has always missed.

 

I wasn't saying Jesus ever became unholy. I am saying that Penal Substitution Theory presents the Father as treating the Son (who is eternally holy and righteous) as if He were unholy (which is a sin).

 

Thanks. This is my point, though. Scripture does not actually even come close to stating that the Father treated the Son as if He were unholy. Some people read it into Scripture, others don't (which probably explains why Christianity as a who has never fully embraced the theory and it has remained one of several).

 

Yes, the focus. Scripture tells us that the even our redemption has in mind God's own glory. It is about God. And God loved (action) the world by sending His Son.

 

Do you understand the concept of "divine immutablity"? If so, do you agree with it?

God never changes (ontologically). He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. God is truth. He is righteous. God does not consider things to be what they are not (God does not lie).

 

I know that passage. I also know that you do not believe God made Christ literally sin (that God made Christ unholy, evil, etc.....or that Christ failed to obey God).

I believe the passage is referring to God making Cheist sin (i.e., representation of sinful man). Of course that us a far cry from saying God treated Christ as if He were unholy.

 

Amen. Isaiah 53 is one of my favorite passages.

Just imagine the love of the Father who would offer His Son as a sin offering for us. As Peter told the Jews, they meant it for evil but the Cross was God's will all along.

Christ bore our sins in His flesh. I can't fathom that love - God becoming one of us, taking our nature in exchange for His glory.

Great passage on the Atonement.

 

Or consider Psalm 22, @tyndale1946 :

My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Why are You so far from my deliverance and from my words of groaning? My God, I cry by day, but You do not answer, by night, yet I have no rest. But You are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. Our fathers trusted in You; they trusted, and You rescued them. They cried to You and were set free; they trusted in You and were not disgraced.

But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by people. Everyone who sees me mocks me; they sneer and shake their heads: “He relies on the Lord; let Him rescue him; let the Lord deliver him, since He takes pleasure in him.”

You took me from the womb, making me secure while at my mother's breast. I was given over to You at birth; You have been my God from my mother's womb. Do not be far from me, because distress is near and there is no one to help. Many bulls surround me; strong ones of Bashan encircle me. They open their mouths against me — lions, mauling and roaring. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are disjointed; my heart is like wax, melting within me. My strength is dried up like baked clay; my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth. You put me into the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me; a gang of evildoers has closed in on me; they pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people look and stare at me. They divided my garments among themselves, and they cast lots for my clothing.

But You, Lord, don't be far away. My strength, come quickly to help me. Deliver my life from the sword, my only life from the power of these dogs. Save me from the mouth of the lion! You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen. I will proclaim Your name to my brothers; I will praise You in the congregation.

You who fear Yahweh, praise Him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor Him! All you descendants of Israel, revere Him! For He has not despised or detested the torment of the afflicted. He did not hide His face from him but listened when he cried to Him for help. I will give praise in the great congregation because of You; I will fulfill my vows before those who fear You. The humble will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the Lord will praise Him. May your hearts live forever! All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord. All the families of the nations will bow down before You, for kingship belongs to the Lord; He rules over the nations. All who prosper on earth will eat and bow down; all those who go down to the dust will kneel before Him — even the one who cannot preserve his life. Their descendants will serve Him; the next generation will be told about the Lord. They will come and tell a people yet to be born about His righteousness — what He has done.

 

Yes. The "great exchange". Good point.

Christ did take on all that it means to be man (the Incarnation). He took our curse. And I do understand if you cannot see it except that Christ was literally "made sin". I am curious, though, how you reconcile passages that state Christ is God's holy and righteous One and that condemning the righteous is an abomination to God (who also does not "author" sin) with the idea that this is exactly what God did at the Cross?