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Free Will Origin of Sin

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by loDebar, Nov 27, 2018.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    He does not reject scripture. He rejects your false assumptions about what the scripture says. You make the blatant error of saying "If there is no choice, then God is the author of sin." That is unsupported unsupportable folly.

    Everyone makes choices. Making choices has nothing to do with "free will." The will is not free. The bible, which you ignor, says so. Rom 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death."

    Without Christ = in bondage to the law of and death.

    With Christ = freed from the law of sin and death.

    God did not foreordain sin. God allowed it for His eternal purpose of Glory.

    God's decretal will is when he decrees something will come to pass, and nothing can stop it. He is the author of His decrees.

    God's permissive will is when he allows something to come to pass, could stop it but allows it for His own purpose. You are the author of your own sin.

    Don't blame God for your sin.
     
    #101 TCassidy, Dec 4, 2018
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  2. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Operative pharse: "should be".
    1Jo 1:8 KJV - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1Jo 1:9 KJV - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    1Jo 1:10 KJV - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
     
    #102 Wesley Briggman, Dec 4, 2018
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  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    your missing the simple base , Scripture does not contradict itself

    If you believe I am the author of my own sin, I can sin in FREE WILL, Free Will exists,
    We agree does not not make me sin. He does not want me to sin. Yet He can control all. so the only way sin exists in God allows it.(according to His will) .

    IF God allows it it exists

    If believes there is no free will, the God does not only allow it He creates it

    Understand the consequences of what is stated and the results of belief

    you are misrepresenting Romans "law of sin" you know it says
    8:2 ὁ γὰρ νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠλευθέρωσέν μεἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ τοῦ θανάτου

    τοῦ is not translated or shown "which" into some translations but it specific in the verse.

    so it says" the law of Spirit in life in Christ Jesus, which had made(me) from the law of sin which is death.

    The verse does not say the law of sin and of death but that the results of sin is death.
    We know his in Romans 3:23

    Sin is a choice in free will, we should not blame God by saying we do not it
    Sin is of the heart and not the body, We do not have to fulfill choices to have free will as Jesus said we sin if we lust in our heart"
     
    #103 loDebar, Dec 4, 2018
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Wow! Do you just make this junk up as you go along?

    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

    Romans 8:2 ο γαρ νομος του πνευματος της ζωης εν χριστω ιησου ηλευθερωσεν με απο του νομου της αμαρτιας και του θανατου

    That could not be any clearer, even if you could read it. (Roll Eyes)

    Here, I will give you the predigested form:

    Romans 8:2
    The law of the Spirit of life (ho nomos tou pneumatos tēs zōēs). The principle or authority exercised by the Holy Spirit which bestows life and which rests “in Christ Jesus.”

    Made me free (ēleutherōsen me). First aorist active indicative of the old verb eleutheroō for which see note on Gal_5:1. We are pardoned, we are free from the old law of sin and death (7:7-24), we are able by the help of the Holy Spirit to live the new life in Christ.

    Robertson's Word Pictures
     
    #104 TCassidy, Dec 4, 2018
  5. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I had to prompt you. somehow

    yes, it made me free "from the law nomos of sin which is death. " in you explanation or teaching you make a law of sin , a law to sin or trapped in sin, which is wrong

    and you know nomos is not just law but rule or custom

    an example is here "
    Rom 7:14
    For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    Rom 7:15
    For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    Rom 7:16
    If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    Rom 7:17
    Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Rom 7:18
    For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    Rom 7:19
    For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    Rom 7:20
    Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Rom 7:21
    I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

    saved , yet admitting the sin occurs and the choice to sin or not remains
     
    #105 loDebar, Dec 5, 2018
  6. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    First and Second

    And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 1 Cor 15:45,46,47,49

    And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
    1 Peter 1:18-20

    Why was it foreordained before the first man Adam was created that there would be redemption by the blood of Christ?

    Did it have anything to do with the sin of the devil?

    For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20 NKJV

    Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, Gen 2:1-4

    Yet it is, unwillingly, subject to futility.

    Why? Does it have anything to do with the sin of the devil? What has been foreordained?

    What is the, in hope? Is that the same hope of Romans 8:24,25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    Does that, hope, have anything to do with the redemption of the body of V 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. < Is that related to 1 Cor 15:45,46? Afterward? After what? The resurrection of Christ?

    Free Will?

    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
     
    #106 percho, Dec 5, 2018
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I'm sorry, but i find it to be too time consuming to try to have an intelligent discussion.

    You neither under stand Greek grammar nor English judging from you spelling and syntax.

    You don't seem able understand what you read and post let alone what post.

    Ergo: Waste of time.
     
    #107 TCassidy, Dec 5, 2018
  8. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    loDebar, count your blessings!
     
    #108 Wesley Briggman, Dec 5, 2018
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I know, I understand .but I wonder in your studies what was the method. We you to learn the language as it applies to English or purely the Gr or Hebrew alone.? Can you translate non scripture ?
     
    #109 loDebar, Dec 5, 2018
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    As most of us know, there are 50 scriptures handled in this work of Gill's that even lost souls, who blindly command that "if God Hadn't Had His Eternal Plan of Salvation, they would march into Heaven and let Him know they aren't going to Hell", aren't aware of. If it weren't for the Actual Existence of God, that is not them, by the way, and His revelation in Philippians 2:9 ff "Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father".…
    Berean Study Bible God Will Shut them up, in other words, and Separate the sheep from the goats. So, these verses discussed are just for mentally healthy, souls that are Led by The Spirit of God. Because GOD RUNS HEAVEN.
    http://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/John Gill/JG_Cause of God and Truth The.pdf
     
    #110 Alan Gross, Dec 5, 2018
  11. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    There is only two ways, Adam sinned in free will or he did not. If he did not then God caused sin.

    So God foreordained Adam to sin so He could save us?
    So God caused Satan to sin also?

    ya better thank 'bout you say
     
    #111 loDebar, Dec 5, 2018
  12. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    It is obvious you do not know who you are, your situation, and why you are here
    God did not make you so He could save you, your choices have put you in sin, not God
     
    #112 loDebar, Dec 5, 2018
  13. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    He should be correcting us to see the truth,
     
    #113 loDebar, Dec 5, 2018
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  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    R.
     
    #114 Alan Gross, Dec 5, 2018
  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

    ? Did the sin of the devil take place, after, at the same moment or before the sin of Adam that brought sin and death to all men?

    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

    Before the foundation of the world, what was the plan of how to go about destroying the devil? Through blood? What, is in the blood? Is it not the soul of the flesh? Life? Lev 17:11

    That through, the death; How was God going to destroy the devil, who possessed the power of, the death, if there be not any death through which to destroy him?

    By what means is God destroying the devil and his works?

    Therefore He says:

    “When He ascended on high,
    He led captivity captive,
    And gave gifts to men


    By ascending on high what, captivity, did Jesus capture? ----- The death?

    (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first [fn] descended (in Death) into the lower parts of the earth? that through death he might destroy him
     
    #115 percho, Dec 6, 2018
  16. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Sin and the results are being removed by the redemption of those who repent. .Some believe either it relates Jesus descending to earth as a man in us who are on death row or it relates to Jesus visiting Paradise to the righteous dead after His ascension to the Father as the sacrifice to preach to those he complete Gospel of His purpose. Death, as the separation from God is removed so we can again fellowship with God.
     
    #116 loDebar, Dec 6, 2018
  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I usually type with one hand, very little editing and rambling.

    but Free Will is so obvious and so scriptural I have not developed an outline to prove a position. I cannot understand the error of so many who are well learned in other areas who should know more of this basic doctrine. It is spiritually disappointing
     
    #117 loDebar, Dec 6, 2018
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I agree. It is hard for me to understand how a professing Christian can openly contradict the word of God.

    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    If you were not in bondage then there was no reason for Christ to set us free from that bondage.

    Rommans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

    Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

    Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    That is the bible. Accept it or reject it. Your choice.
     
    #118 TCassidy, Dec 6, 2018
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  19. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    It is hard for me to understand how a professing Christian trained in Hebrew and Greek insists that God is the cause of sin bt rejecting Free Will.

    We sinners live in sin because of the cares of this world or self being out only consideration. If we sin and continue in sin, we are in bondage to sin but thank God through the Holy Spirit we can realize our situation apart from God and can be brought to an understanding of His Gospel and make a choice to continue in sin or choose to accept Salvation.
    Being in bondage does not mean there is no hope then of Christ is in vain. We are all sinners. but since some of us accept salvation is proof of the ability to choose repentance

    We both agree if we reject Christ, sin can grow stronger and if rejection continues the Holy Spirit will not deal with us.

    Sinners who continue in sin and who do not consider God will continue into depravity, as an alcoholic. They loose their ability to choose.

    But Jesus said He stands at the door and knocks..... He doesn't enter without permission.
     
    #119 loDebar, Dec 6, 2018
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    And there is the error (again) that I have been trying to disabuse you of.

    Adam was not created in bondage to sin. Adam was the first and only person to have free will. He used the free will to choose the eat the forbidden fruit and that choice brought him into condemnation and bondage to sin. All persons since then have been born in sin and the bondage to sin.

    An illustration. I am an American citizen by right of Jus Soli (right of the soil - IE I was born in the US). But my father was not a US citizen. But when I applied for a visa to visit my fathers home land they check his records and found that he has registered me with the government of his homeland. They told me I did not need a visa because I was a citizen of that country too, this time by right of Jus sanguinis (the right of blood - my father was a citizen so I was automatically a citizen).

    Adam sinned and his sin put him at odds with God. We, as Adam's children inherit that condition by right of blood (line). That is what John is talking about in John 1:13 when he says "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    We inherited our fallen condition, our being in bondage, from our father Adam. Just as I am a citizen of the US because I was born here, I am also a sinner because I was born in sin.

    So, once again, Adam had free will. He forfeited that free will when he ate the forbidden fruit. And every one of his descendants has been born in that condition, no longer free, but in bondage to the law of sin and death.
     
    #120 TCassidy, Dec 6, 2018
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