Back by popular demand - An often unpopular view of the Atonement

[Yeshua1]

I had to read that part twice. That's a new one for me.

If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that you have encountered some who believe God is slightly annoyed at sin. Kinda makes our argument calm. You believe God's anger could only be remedied by God punishing Jesus to pay our sin debt. I believe God's wrath against sin so much eternally greater than punishment would cure so we had to be "re-created", that we had to die to sin and be made into new creations.

But where I believe your view weak on divine wrath and sin, it's nothing compared to the idea of divine annoyance.

God cannot recreate us until and after His wrath towards our sins and sin natures is expediate/appeased in full though!

 

[Yeshua1]

I remembered the other place where I saw za'am described as 'foam at the mouth. It is in Spurgeon's Treasury of David in a quotation from a chap called Richard Mant. 'The original expression here is very forcible. The true idea of it appears to be to 'froth' or 'foam at the mouth' with indignation.'

But you continue to misunderstand my position. I believe that God is furious with sin, and must punish it if He is to be righteous. But He does not 'punish Jesus to pay our sin debt.' He punishes sin in Jesus, which is not the same thing. Christ was made sin for us, and bore our sins in His body on the tree.

Who does not believe that 'unless one is born again ['re-created'] he cannot enter the kingdom of God'? I certainly do. But if that is what is needed for God to forgive guilty sinners, then there was no need for Christ to die.

God did not punish Jesus Himself for what he had done, but he punished our sin debt that was placed upon Him in full while upon that Cross...

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, but it wasn't your view, was it? Read posts #2 and #3. As soon as I began to deal ith the O,P you told me I had misunderstood you. If you would like to give me your view as amended to include post #3, and anything else you may have omitted to say, that will no doubt be helpful. I can't play Twenty Questions with you to find out what you really believe.

[ edited, provocative content ]

 

[Yeshua1]

They will remain beyond my grasp if you don't express them. The O.P. was not your view because you immediately amended it in post #3.

I don't think Lewis is necessarily the best advocate for your beliefs. He was a High Church Anglican and certainly no sort of evangelical. However, what does it mean that the Lord Jesus died on our behalf?

If I write a letter on your behalf, I write it and you don't. I write it instead of you.
If you win the Congressional Medal of Honour (how long can it be?), but are unable to go to receive it, I might do so on your behalf; I collect it instead of you.
In both of these examples, I am doing something for your benefit.
If you have tickets to a big baseball match and I steal them from you, I would go to the match instead of you, but I wouldn't be going on your behalf. I am not doing something for your benefit.

So to do something on someone's behalf means to do it instead of him, but for his benefit. Christ gave His flesh for our flesh; He suffered in the flesh instead of us, so that we don't have to. He gave His life for our life; He died that we might live forever. He did both those things for our benefit, so they are on our behalf.

What you (and Lewis) are arguing is that Christ died for our benefit, but not instead of us. But what you cannot deny is that He suffered and we don't. What benefit is it if Christ dies and it is not in our place? Where is the justice of God in that?

Why did Jesus have to die, if not for our sins then?

 

[Yeshua1]

You think God foams at the mouth. Anger only occurs when a person is too ignorant to a solution.

Give us that verse where We are told by Jesus to follow God's example and foam at the mouth like an idiot.

God has righteous anger towards sins and sinners not saved, did He not show that on Sodom, and in the Flood?

 

[JonC]

Pauline theology of the atonement as expressed to us especially in Romans and Galatians is Pst!

Why do you divorce "Pauline theology" from the whole?

 

[JonC]

Why did Jesus have to die, if not for our sins then?

He had to die because we are sinners - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

(Please notice my statement....you are addressing @Martin Marprelate 's misunderstanding rather than what I actually posted in the OP).

God did not punish Jesus Himself for what he had done, but he punished our sin debt that was placed upon Him in full while upon that Cross...

You said it was like God punching Himself in the nose. Sin is not a thing that can be punished.... or transferred.

 

[Yeshua1]

He had to die because we are sinners - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

(Please notice my statement....you are addressing @Martin Marprelate 's misunderstanding rather than what I actually posted in the OP).

Again, why would God have a sinless man die, if not for their place/in stead of lost sinners?

 

[JonC]

Again, why would God have a sinless man die, if not for their place/in stead of lost sinners?

As a propitiation for our sin.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why do you divorce "Pauline theology" from the whole?

Paul theology is the greatest in entire Bible, as he gave to us in whole the Christian revelation from God on who Jesus was and is, what the Church was and is and will be, and what the atonement consisted of, and what and how God did it thru the Cross!

 

[Yeshua1]

As a propitiation for our sin.

The Propitiation for the wrath of God towards sins and sinners, correct?

 

[JonC]

Paul theology is the greatest in entire Bible, as he gave to us in whole the Christian revelation from God on who Jesus was and is, what the Church was and is and will be, and what the atonement consisted of, and what and how God did it thru the Cross!

Really? Greater than Peter's "God breathed" theology? Greater than Jesus' theology? Greater BBC than James? John?

 

[JonC]

The Propitiation for the wrath of God towards sins and sinners, correct?

An appeasement of God's wrath.

 

[Yeshua1]

Really? Greater than Peter's "God breathed" theology? Greater than Jesus' theology? Greater BBC than James? John?

Greater in the sense of being the fullest and most complete of the revelation from God to us, as all scripture is equally inspired by God, but God chose to revel to Paul the deepest things of the faith!

 

[Yeshua1]

An appeasement of God's wrath.

God's wrath toward sin and sinners, correct?

 

[utilyan]

God has righteous anger towards sins and sinners not saved, did He not show that on Sodom, and in the Flood?

"God has righteous anger " Which is nothing like our own. Nothing frustrates God. Nothing has to happen the way it happens FOR GOD at the wink of an eye.

 

[Yeshua1]

"God has righteous anger " Which is nothing like our own. Nothing frustrates God. Nothing has to happen the way it happens FOR GOD at the wink of an eye.

God is a jealous God, and His anger blasted the Egyptian army, correct?