There is really no perfect translation available to gives to us fully intact what the intended message of the inspired originals were, but so do a much better job of giving that to us than other translations do!
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Biblical errancy.
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Yes, as that text can be read to mean the Pastor must have only been married one time, must not have ever been divorced, or as I see it meaning, must have just one wife, not many wives at same time.
I am a Calvinist, and I still see the command of Jesus to go and get out the message to all of the lost, as only God knows who are His own!
Our brother seems to see the translation process as being fully black and white, with no real need to see differing nuances and try to account for ambiguity in the text!
And that is as it should be. Being a Calvinist does not release a believer from the Great Commission.
That is a common mistake made by those who have no experience or training in languages.
Indeed, as some of the greatest soul winning groups and soul winners themselves were Calvinist! And while did not agree with his theology in full, none could accuse John Wesley as not being a fervent soul winner...
You don't celebrate Christmas.
You don't attend church. Haven't for several years and for the past eleven years it was only occasionally.
(This means you likely don't participate in the Lord's Supper.)
You don't believe in Sunday School.
You don't believe baptism is necessary for membership in the local church.
You list your faith as "Baptist". Is this accurate? Why or why not?
Maybe he holds to a "john the Baptist" Baptist church?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
My "faith" is "child of the living God" who believes on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins.
My eternal hope of salvation rests in Him, and in His finished work on the cross....alone.
I was brought to the knowledge of my salvation and converted in a "Baptist" church in 1978.
For all intents and purposes, I am now what you might call a "Particular Baptist" or "Sovereign Grace Baptist".
I don't "attend church", I assemble and fellowship with other believers.
The last time I remembered His body and blood in a group setting has been awhile, but I'm sure the next time is not too far off.
There is no such thing as "Sunday School" in all of the Bible...if you find it, please list it for me.
I hold that those who have believed on Christ should be baptized as soon as possible in accordance with the Lord's command ( Mark 16:16 ).
I do not believe in "church membership" in the traditional sense...believers are all members one of another...I believe I made this clear in other threads.
When it comes to denominations, I am a "Baptist" and have been all my life.
Question:
Where in all of the Bible do you see "denominations"?
" Baptists"?
" Evangelicals"?
" Methodists"?
" Presbyterians"?
" Catholics"?
Answer:
There are none.
So, what is it that makes me a "Baptist"?
My beliefs about the Bible....not the building I might frequent on Sunday mornings that has a sign out front.
Next question:
Is there something wrong with meeting in a home?
That's what it all started out as...
" For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." ( Matthew 18:20 ) <----- That, is a church.
That thing down on the street corner that people give "tithes" for, is a building patterned off what people left during the "Protestant Reformation", in my opinion.
If people want a fancy building and paid "staff", it will take money...believe me.
A great deal of it, in some cases.
If you ask me, it's a waste of money to build something with money that could be better put to use meeting the earthly needs of God's people...than in lining it with creature comforts, etc.
However:
I am not averse to meeting in a traditional church, I just haven't been led to one yet.
However, I have learned much from being away from them.
Such as, God uses them, but that wasn't His original design.
As I see it, we've come a long way down the drain of tradition, and to me, lost track of what it's all about...
Him.
Is there something in error with naming the name of Jesus Christ and not believing in "traditional churches", that waste money and end up resembling businesses rather than the spiritual family models that they are supposed to be?
I hope not, because I grew up with far too much religion and tradition...
I'd rather my brothers and sisters not be sidetracked with all the trappings of what is now called "Christianity", and get back to where it all started:
Assembling together for the purposes of learning of the God who saved us, and edifying one another...building up one another in their faith.
I hope that answers some of what you see as wrong with me.
May God, in His mercy and grace, bless you abundantly, sir.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
With respect, to me, you act as if people are personally bound to it.
Speaking for myself, I would be, if God had called me to be an evangelist...but He hasn't.
From my perspective, the so-called "Great Commission" was given specifically to the 11 apostles, and by extension, to the body of Christ as a whole.
Those whom God has specifically fitted out with certain gifts are to exercise those gifts through the power and working of the Holy Spirit and do the work that they are called to do:
" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16 )
Not everyone is a "soul winner", and not everyone is fitted out as such.
Phillip was an evangelist ( Acts of the Apostles 21:8 ).
Stephen was a deacon ( Acts of the Apostles 6:1-6 ).
Timothy was several things.
What was Lydia? We're not told.
What was Demas? We're not told.
What was Matthew? An apostle.
Jude? An apostle.
Priscilla and Aquila?
How about Agabus? a prophet ( Acts of the Apostles 21:10 ).
The Lord calls His ministers to the work that they are to do.
Everyone has their place in the body of Christ.
"Soul Winning" is left to evangelists, whom God has called and gifted to do the work.
Incidentally, there is only one place in all of God's word where we get that phrase, or something even close to it...Proverbs 11:30.
Nobody "wins souls" in the eternal sense;
God is the Soul Winner, as salvation is His work alone, and His word accompanied by the working of His Spirit are what does the "winning".
The evangelist is His servant and adopted son, and does His will because deep down, he wants to.
He is His "mouthpiece", and is a willing participant in whatever He wants to be said.
With the above stated, I'm not an evangelist, so the "Great Commission" isn't something that overly concerns me.
What does concern me is this:
" And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing." ( 1 Peter 3:13-17 )
May He bless you richly, good sir.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
As I see it,
John Wesley preached a gospel that not only rested on a person's efforts to gain eternal life, but to keep it as well.
He taught loss of salvation, and that a person's free will decision was what triggered God's gift of regeneration.
He did not preach the everlasting Gospel which the Lord Jesus Himself preached, which Peter preached and which Paul preached.
To me, it was quite different.
Apologies, gentlemen ( and ladies ), but I've strayed far off topic here.
This is my last post in this thread...if any of you have questions for me, please use the "start a conversation" function, and I will be more than happy to address any concerns or inquiries.
If you believe me to be a heretic, then report me to the mods.
Thus far it has been my privilege to speak as I feel needs to be spoken, but I realize that I've offended some in the process, and that was never my intention.
It is also not my intention to bring anything to the table other than the truth of God's word...
But, that is for you to decide.
May God bless you all, and may you never forget His grace and mercy to you.
Eternal life is a rare gift, and few there be that find it ( Matthew 7:14 ).
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37818
Well-Known Member
Hmm. . . . Jesus told the 11, ". . .Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. . . ." So the commission has been passed on to us.With respect, to me, you act as if people are personally bound to it.
Speaking for myself, I would be, if God had called me to be an evangelist...but He hasn't.
From my perspective, the so-called "Great Commission" was given specifically to the 11 apostles, and by extension, to the body of Christ as a whole.
Those whom God has specifically fitted out with certain gifts are to exercise those gifts through the power and working of the Holy Spirit and do the work that they are called to do:
" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16 )
Not everyone is a "soul winner", and not everyone is fitted out as such.
Phillip was an evangelist ( Acts of the Apostles 21:8 ).
Stephen was a deacon ( Acts of the Apostles 6:1-6 ).
Timothy was several things.
What was Lydia? We're not told.
What was Demas? We're not told.
What was Matthew? An apostle.
Jude? An apostle.
Priscilla and Aquila?
How about Agabus? a prophet ( Acts of the Apostles 21:10 ).
The Lord calls His ministers to the work that they are to do.
Everyone has their place in the body of Christ.
"Soul Winning" is left to evangelists, whom God has called and gifted to do the work.
Incidentally, there is only one place in all of God's word where we get that phrase, or something even close to it...Proverbs 11:30.
Nobody "wins souls" in the eternal sense;
God is the Soul Winner, as salvation is His work alone, and His word accompanied by the working of His Spirit are what does the "winning".
The evangelist is His servant and adopted son, and does His will because deep down, he wants to.
He is His "mouthpiece", and is a willing participant in whatever He wants to be said.
With the above stated, I'm not an evangelist, so the "Great Commission" isn't something that overly concerns me.
What does concern me is this:
" And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing." ( 1 Peter 3:13-17 )
May He bless you richly, good sir.
Absolutely. How could it be otherwise? The Great Commission in John is to simply "disciples" (20:20), not just the 11.
The thing is, in Acts 2 it was not "evangelists" but ordinary believers who gave the Gospel. The same is true in 8:4, "Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word."
Look at the target audience for the GC in Luke 24:33--"the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them." So the Lukan version was to all believers.
Look at the target audience for John's GC in 20:21--"the disciples." So, John's GC is simply to the disciples, not "the eleven." Every single believer is obligated to obey the GC and work to get the Gospel into all the world, even if they do not become a foreign missionary as I did (and I am not an "evangelist").
"Soul winning" is a Biblical term. The parallelism of Hebrew poetry indicates that having the fruit of righteous people is a tree of life, and therefore is the same as "winning souls"--"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." I highly recommend Calvinist Spurgeon's book, The Soul Winner.
I believe you may have misunderstood the gift of Evangelist. While you may not be an evangelist, you are called to evangelize. An evangelist's calling/work is not done until he is able to help others evangelize.
You see, in Chapter 4 of Ephesians, those people are gifted to the Church are "Equippers". They get people ready for the work of the ministry. An evangelist does not simply evangelize the lost, he teaches and exhorts the body of Christ to proclaim the good news.
Once again, you misunderstand Ephesians 4.
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Oops. I thought this was from Dave Gilbert. However, JonShaff has done a good job of describing the evangelist, and I agree with him.
What about His take on John Wesley, would you agree with Dave on that?
I missed that. What did he say about Wesley? Never mind, I just saw it. I'll withhold judgment on what Dave said about John Wesley until he proves it with quotes from Wesley--which I'm pretty sure he can't or won't do. I will admit that Wesley thought you could lose your salvation.
I consider Wesley to be a great Revivalist but not so great a Christian. He was so careless about his marriage that his wife left him.
My point was that while he had defective theology in some regards, he was still preaching Jesus, and God still used Him to ignite a revival!
That's why I said he was a great revivalist.
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