The Wrath of God Poured Out

[Martin Marprelate]

In the light of various discussions about the wrath of God, I wondered how often it is described as being 'poured out.' So I counted them.

The Hebrew word chemah is variously translated in the KJV as 'wrath' or 'fury.' It is described as being 'poured out' in 2 Chronicles 34:25; Psalms 79:6; Isaiah 42:25; Jeremiah 7:20; 42:18; 44:6; Ezekiel 7:8; 9:8; 14:10; 20:8, 13, 21, 33, 34; 22:22; 30:15; [Amos 5:9]; Micah 5:15; Nahum 1:6. See also Isaiah 51:17-22.
The Hebrew word ebrah, also translated 'wrath' is found 'poured out' at Psalm 78:49; Hosea 5:10.
The Hebrew word aph, translated 'anger' is found 'poured out' at Isaiah 41:25; Lamentations 4:11; Zephaniah 3:8.
One might also consider the word charon in Job 20:23, where it is 'cast upon' rather than 'poured out.'

In the N.T. the Greek word orge is found in Revelation 14:10 and 8 times in Revelation 16.

 

[Yeshua1]

In the light of various discussions about the wrath of God, I wondered how often it is described as being 'poured out.' So I counted them.

The Hebrew word chemah is variously translated in the KJV as 'wrath' or 'fury.' It is described as being 'poured out' in 2 Chronicles 34:25; Psalms 79:6; Isaiah 42:25; Jeremiah 7:20; 42:18; 44:6; Ezekiel 7:8; 9:8; 14:10; 20:8, 13, 21, 33, 34; 22:22; 30:15; [Amos 5:9]; Micah 5:15; Nahum 1:6. See also Isaiah 51:17-22.
The Hebrew word ebrah, also translated 'wrath' is found 'poured out' at Psalm 78:49; Hosea 5:10.
The Hebrew word aph, translated 'anger' is found 'poured out' at Isaiah 41:25; Lamentations 4:11; Zephaniah 3:8.
One might also consider the word charon in Job 20:23, where it is 'cast upon' rather than 'poured out.'

In the N.T. the Greek word orge is found in Revelation 14:10 and 8 times in Revelation 16.

The wrath of God is active, not passive, as He will indeed pour it all out on sinners who have not had their sins atoned for and paid by the death of Jesus for them!

 

[JonC]

I agree with @Yeshua1 that it is an action. It is the act of God exercising judgment on an evil person or people. I believe it is related to the righteousness of God, which is an expression of God Himself. As such, God’s wrath is related to God’s love and mercy. The difference is not God (Who is immutable) but man upon whom wrath or mercy is shown.

A righteous God punishes the “evil-doer”. A righteous God shows mercy to the repentant. Both are expressions of God’s righteousness.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree with @Yeshua1 that it is an action. It is the act of God exercising judgment on an evil person or people. I believe it is related to the righteousness of God, which is an expression of God Himself. As such, God’s wrath is related to God’s love and mercy. The difference is not God (Who is immutable) but man upon whom wrath or mercy is shown.

A righteous God punishes the “evil-doer”. A righteous God shows mercy to the repentant. Both are expressions of God’s righteousness.

And while upon the cursed Cross, Jesus was taking the place of us evil doerers, and had to face what we should have!

 

[JonC]

And while upon the cursed Cross, Jesus was taking the place of us evil doerers, and had to face what we should have!

You just had to undo my "I agree with @Yeshua1", didn't you .

 

[Yeshua1]

You just had to undo my "I agree with @Yeshua1", didn't you .

You agree with we have to receive the due penalty from God due to being sinners, and Jesus stood in our place to take that punishment for our sake, correct?

 

[JonC]

You agree with we have to receive the due penalty from God due to being sinners, and Jesus stood in our place to take that punishment for our sake, correct?

No. I don't. I agreed with you that "wrath" was an action.

It made me a little nauseous to agree, but I took some dolasetron and am chewing on ginger. And post #4 helped. I'm about over it now.

 

[Yeshua1]

No. I don't. I agreed with you that "wrath" was an action.

It made me a little nauseous to agree, but I took some dolasetron and am chewing on ginger. And post #4 helped. I'm about over it now.

God has to do something to have His divine wrath appeased, and jesus agreed to be that something!

 

[JonC]

God has to do something to have His divine wrath appeased, and jesus agreed to be that something!

I know this is what you believe. And you know I disagree.

For the record, if you ever want to quote me and post something that contains God having to do something for man you might as well just conclude with "I know you disagree JonC".

 

[Yeshua1]

I know this is what you believe. And you know I disagree.

For the record, if you ever want to quote me and post something that contains God having to do something for man you might as well just conclude with "I know you disagree JonC".

If God doesn't do it for us, who will , in order to get saved and redeemed?

 

[JonC]

If God doesn't do it for us, who will , in order to get saved and redeemed?

This is where we differ. I do not believe God had to satisfy divine wrath so that we could get saved. I believe God saved us.

What you are asking is philosophical, not theological.

 

[Deacon]

Timely post Martin, I'm teaching on Hebrews 10:19-39 tomorrow morning.

Hebrews 10:26–31 (NASB95)
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Will Christians only be splashed upon by God's judgement?

Rob

 

[Yeshua1]

This is where we differ. I do not believe God had to satisfy divine wrath so that we could get saved. I believe God saved us.

What you are asking is philosophical, not theological.

On what basis was he able to save us then? As He cannot just say we are now saved, so on what basis?

 

[kyredneck]

Will Christians only be splashed upon by God's judgement?

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

These in chapter 10 had 'received the knowledge of the truth', were 'sanctified by the blood of the covenant', called 'His people'. It's not just 'any ol' sin' that's in view here, but a specific sin (returning to apostate Judaism) of which a specific people (professing Jewish Christians), of a specific time (the very generation that judged Christ to be worthy of death) were under pressure to do.

There was to be no repentance granted for those that fell away and returned back to that apostate system that killed Christ, because by returning they crucified the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame (Heb 6:4-6), but there was only a certain fearful expectation of judgment which would devour the adversaries before that generation passed away (Heb 10:37), for those that had trodden under foot the Son of God and counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing and done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:27-29) by falling away back to the apostate Judaism they been delivered from

Fall Away, Hebrews 6:4-6

 

[Yeshua1]

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

These in chapter 10 had 'received the knowledge of the truth', were 'sanctified by the blood of the covenant', called 'His people'. It's not just 'any ol' sin' that's in view here, but a specific sin (returning to apostate Judaism) of which a specific people (professing Jewish Christians), of a specific time (the very generation that judged Christ to be worthy of death) were under pressure to do.

There was to be no repentance granted for those that fell away and returned back to that apostate system that killed Christ, because by returning they crucified the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame (Heb 6:4-6), but there was only a certain fearful expectation of judgment which would devour the adversaries before that generation passed away (Heb 10:37), for those that had trodden under foot the Son of God and counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing and done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:27-29) by falling away back to the apostate Judaism they been delivered from

Fall Away, Hebrews 6:4-6

They were those who professed jesus as Messiah, but were never saved!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree with @Yeshua1 that it is an action. It is the act of God exercising judgment on an evil person or people. I believe it is related to the righteousness of God, which is an expression of God Himself. As such, God’s wrath is related to God’s love and mercy. The difference is not God (Who is immutable) but man upon whom wrath or mercy is shown.

A righteous God punishes the “evil-doer”. A righteous God shows mercy to the repentant. Both are expressions of God’s righteousness.

Thank you. If a righteous God shows mercy to the repentant, what then is the purpose of the Lord Jesus Christ coming into the world?
And what would we think of a human judge who acquitted everyone who was sorry for their crime?

 

[JonC]

Thank you. If a righteous God shows mercy to the repentant, what then is the purpose of the Lord Jesus Christ coming into the world?
And what would we think of a human judge who acquitted everyone who was sorry for their crime?

He is the Mercy shown to the repentant. For God loved the world in this way, that He sent His only begotten Son.

I am not saying God "felt sorry" for our sin. I am saying that God is faithful to forgive those who in repentance turn to Him. This is compassion.

Regarding a human judge, it depends. If I demonstrate contempt for a human judge and I strike him then he may righteously find me in contempt and order I be remanded to custody. But if, after striking the judge, I am shown my error and genuinely repent, the human judge is not bound by law to punish me for contempt. In fact, sometimes confinement for contempt is dismissed once the person complies. The judge could simply say "I'm glad, JonC, that you've changed your attitude towards me. You are free to go.". The judge could also have me arrested....it's up to the judge. But given I found the $20 bill he just "dropped", I'm pretty sure he's going to let me go.

Regarding a human person - Suppose you punch me because you think I referred to you as a heretic. Upon being hit I explain that I was speaking in terms of principle rather than making implications about you. You understand and are genuinely sorry you punched me in the nose. Can I justly forgive you without having to punch someone else in the nose first? What does the law demand? An "eye for an eye"?

Ultimately the problem depends on whether one is justified by the act of repentance and belief in Christ or by God pouring His wrath upon Christ. If one is justified in Christ (as I believe) by dying to sin and being reborn (spiritually) then it would be unjust for God to have poured His wrath upon Christ and He would have been unrighteous not to simply forgive based on that repentance. If God has to punish Christ for our sin in order to satisfy the demands of divine justice then the rebirth is not necessary for salvation, but may be a following work as the wrath against us has already been satisfied (perhaps a work of sanctification).

 

[JonC]

Timely post Martin, I'm teaching on Hebrews 10:19-39 tomorrow morning.

Hebrews 10:26–31 (NASB95)
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Will Christians only be splashed upon by God's judgement?

Rob

Please tell me you didn't tell the "he brews" joke.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

He is the Mercy shown to the repentant. For God loved the world in this way, that He sent His only begotten Son.

This bit is correct; the rest, less so.

I am not saying God "felt sorry" for our sin. I am saying that God is faithful to forgive those who in repentance turn to Him. This is compassion.

God is 'faithful and just' to forgive us our sins' (1 John 1:9). His justice is found in 1 John 2:2. Christ is the 'propitiation for our sins.' He is the sacrifice that turns away wrath.

Regarding a human judge, it depends. If I demonstrate contempt for a human judge and I strike him then he may righteously find me in contempt and order I be remanded to custody. But if, after striking the judge, I am shown my error and genuinely repent, the human judge is not bound by law to punish me for contempt. In fact, sometimes confinement for contempt is dismissed once the person complies. The judge could simply say "I'm glad, JonC, that you've changed your attitude towards me. You are free to go.". The judge could also have me arrested....it's up to the judge. But given I found the $20 bill he just "dropped", I'm pretty sure he's going to let me go.

I can only suggest that you try punching a judge, then apologize and attempt to bribe him with a $20 bill, and see how you get on. Not well, I fear.

Regarding a human person - Suppose you punch me because you think I referred to you as a heretic. Upon being hit I explain that I was speaking in terms of principle rather than making implications about you. You understand and are genuinely sorry you punched me in the nose. Can I justly forgive you without having to punch someone else in the nose first? What does the law demand? An "eye for an eye"?

Two differences between you and God (there are several!) are
1. You are a sinner saved by grace; as a recipient of grace therefore, you should forgive other sinners if they repent (Matthew 18:12-13). God is not a sinner. His justice forbids the forgiveness of sins without just punishment being inflicted '.....By no means clearing the guilty.....' (Exodus 34:7).
2. You are a complex creature. God is neither of those things. He is simple and uncreated. His simplicity means that He will always be as He always has been. If He changed, it would either be from better to worse or from worse to better, neither of which are possible. He cannot therefore change His own laws. 'God is angry with sinners every day.' 'The soul that sins shall die.' 'Justify the righteous and condemn the wicked.' But praise His Name, God has found away to match His justice to His mercy in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ultimately the problem depends on whether one is justified by the act of repentance and belief in Christ or by God pouring His wrath upon Christ.

One is justified by faith and repentance towards Christ, but one is saved by Christ and by the grace of God.

If one is justified in Christ (as I believe) by dying to sin and being reborn (spiritually) then it would be unjust for God to have poured His wrath upon Christ and He would have been unrighteous not to simply forgive based on that repentance. If God has to punish Christ for our sin in order to satisfy the demands of divine justice then the rebirth is not necessary for salvation, but may be a following work as the wrath against us has already been satisfied (perhaps a work of sanctification).

So you have answered my question in post #16; on that basis there is no reason for Christ to have come and presumably we should all be Jews or Moslems.

But in fact, 'You shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.' 'Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.' 'Even Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.'

 

[JonC]

So you have answered my question in post #16; on that basis there is no reason for Christ to have come and presumably we should all be Jews or Moslems.

Good morning, Martin.

I hope you and your family had a wonderful Christmas. Just to show how much we do agree before my comment, I again affirm every passage you have provided. God certainly is both merciful and just.

Before we can move you need to provide a source as on the surface there seems to be a credibility issue to your position regarding opposing views (one which may disqualify you from holding an opinion about views other than your own).

Please point out where I have stated that there is no reason for Christ to have come and presumably we should all be Jews or Moslems. Please show where I provided this as the basis for my answer to you.

I can't help but see the claim above as extremely dishonest by deliberately making false accusations simply because we disagree. This is concerning as there are many Christians who disagree with you theories yet none who make the claim you attach to me.

Regardless, I am trying my best to view your statement as an honest oversight. I prefer to afford you the assumption of integrity indicative of the Christian I believe you to be.

Sometimes in argument, particularly when one's logic has failed, people resort to misrepresentation. Sometimes misstatements are made simple because the other person cannot grasp the opposing view. At times false statements are made from simple oversight or carelessness. Occasionally dishonest statements are merely disagreements poorly worded.

Before we continue I believe it appropriate for you to clarify the claim you have made. Please simply provide a quote where I make the statement there was no reason for Christ to have come.

I believe it important because if you truly cannot grasp opposing views regarding the Cross (if you legitimately believe all other understands hold there is no reason for Christ to have come) then I am not certain you are in a position to engage views other than your own. Such an inability would just breed contention and hostility as you wouldn't be able to fully grasp the implications against your position much less deal with other positions on their grounds.

Thank you,

John