How is it that Christ's death is "for our sins"?

[JonC]

There has been much conversation on the BB about how people who do not hold to Penal Substitution Theory can still view Christ’s death as necessary.

The question is wrong. It is foolish to believe that of all Christians who have lived only a minority who hold to Penal Substitution Theory view the Cross as a necessity insofar as the redemption of mankind.

A better question is - How is it that Christ’s death is “for our sins”?

Some view the Cross as representing the payment for a debt owed to God because of Adam’s transgression.

Others believe the Cross represents a blood sacrifice to appease the wrath of God and satisfy a “sin debt”.


Others view Christ’s death as the destruction of sin and death by healing the corruption of sin.

Some view Christ’s death as a necessary component of becoming man (as a necessary aspect of the Incarnation).

Some view Christ’s death as being necessary at the hands of men through the will of God (embodying the principalities of sin and evil) rather than at the hand of the Father and the Resurrection as indicative of victory.

Of course there are views in between and further out. These are just examples.

All of them require the Cross. But each views how Christ’s death was for our sins differently.

 

[Yeshua1]

There has been much conversation on the BB about how people who do not hold to Penal Substitution Theory can still view Christ’s death as necessary.

The question is wrong. It is foolish to believe that of all Christians who have lived only a minority who hold to Penal Substitution Theory view the Cross as a necessity insofar as the redemption of mankind.

A better question is - How is it that Christ’s death is “for our sins”?

Some view the Cross as representing the payment for a debt owed to God because of Adam’s transgression.

Others believe the Cross represents a blood sacrifice to appease the wrath of God and satisfy a “sin debt”.


Others view Christ’s death as the destruction of sin and death by healing the corruption of sin.

Some view Christ’s death as a necessary component of becoming man (as a necessary aspect of the Incarnation).

Some view Christ’s death as being necessary at the hands of men through the will of God (embodying the principalities of sin and evil) rather than at the hand of the Father and the Resurrection as indicative of victory.

Of course there are views in between and further out. These are just examples.

All of them require the Cross. But each views how Christ’s death was for our sins differently.

However one views this, there must be some way to have the Cross as a satisfaction to God the Father for the sin obligation and debt incurred by us due to the fall of Adam and our own sinning!
Must be something that appeased the Holy Wreath of a Holy God directed towards us!

 

[agedman]

The OT had the blood removed BEFORE the application upon the door posts and lintel, and before the sprinkling on the ark covering, so Christ too she’d blood before being lifted up.

The Scriptures state the purpose of the cross (being lifted up) was to draw all to Him.

The aspect of death for sins comes primarily (imo) from Romans 4:

24but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.​

However “delivered over” included the time from the garden, so those who skew their view to only blood shed on a cross miss the mark of blood shed prior to being lifted up upon the altar of sacrifice.

The blood had purpose (and how that blood was shed has meaning.

The physical death has purpose, for it took the sting from believers. Prior to the death, believers transitioned into paradise as seen by both the story of Lazarus in paradise, and the statement made to the thief. Death had the sting of waiting upon a completed work.

No more, for when this physical shroud ceases,the believer is present with the Lord.

The resurrection had its purpose in justification. It is that victory that believers (those who remain) will meet Him in the air to join those already with him upon return.

Each aspect of the days of crucifixion have their own purpose, yet are linked in such a manner as to provide completed redemption and adoption for believers who God chose, bought, and brought unto Himself for His glory.


Therefore the believer responsibility is to:

18Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sine a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.​

 

[37818]

It was paid on the cross.

 

[agedman]

It was paid on the cross.

To whom?

 

[JonC]

However one views this, there must be some way to have the Cross as a satisfaction to God the Father for the sin obligation and debt incurred by us due to the fall of Adam and our own sinning!
Must be something that appeased the Holy Wreath of a Holy God directed towards us!

Scripture tells us the Son will see this work and be satisfied.

I agree that any form of Satisfaction theory looks to the satisfaction of God in some form (whether honor, merit, or wrath). But there is a huge difference between viewing Christ as the propitiation for our sins and a satisfaction this "sin obligation and debt". The first is actually in the Bible. The second is not.

 

[37818]

To whom?

1 John 2:1.

 

[Dave G]

It was paid on the cross.

To whom?

To God the Father.

" In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world." ( 1 John 4:9-14 )

Quite a bit could be extracted from this passage, as I see it, but for now I've highlighted just the parts about God, and in context, the Father.

 

[Dave G]

A better question is - How is it that Christ’s death is “for our sins”?

I believe that His death is for our sins because Christ's death and blood sacrifice appeased ( propitiated ) God's wrath, and made atonement.

Deliverance from the Father's wrath:

" Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." ( Romans 5:9 ) <------- Believers are justified by Christ's blood, and saved from wrath through Christ Jesus.

" and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10 ) <---- Christ delivered believers from the wrath to come.

" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ) <---- Believers are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation by Jesus Christ.


Payment for our sins:

" But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." ( 1 John 1:7 )

" Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. " ( Titus 2:14 )

" forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" ( 1 Peter 1:18-19 )

" Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate." ( Hebrews 13:12 )




May God bless each of you richly.

 

[Dave G]

Scripture tells us the Son will see this work and be satisfied.

Well, I see from Scripture that the Father will see the work and be satisfied ( Matthew 3:17, Luke 3:22 )...
But I think that was what you intended to type.

 

[JonC]

Well, I see from Scripture that the Father will see the work and be satisfied ( Matthew 3:17, Luke 3:22 )...
But I think that was what you intended to type.

Actually I was thinking of Isaiah 53. But the point, I believe, is that God is satisfied. We are delievered from the wrath to come by God Himself.

 

[JonC]

I believe that His death is for our sins because Christ's death and blood sacrifice appeased ( propitiated ) God's wrath, and made atonement.

Deliverance from the Father's wrath:

" Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." ( Romans 5:9 ) <------- Believers are justified by Christ's blood, and saved from wrath through Christ Jesus.

" and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10 ) <---- Christ delivered believers from the wrath to come.

" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ) <---- Believers are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation by Jesus Christ.


Payment for our sins:

" But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." ( 1 John 1:7 )

" Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. " ( Titus 2:14 )

" forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" ( 1 Peter 1:18-19 )

" Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate." ( Hebrews 13:12 )




May God bless each of you richly.

I mostly agree. I agree Christ is a propitiation for our sins, but I question the language his death is a payment "for our sins". Is there a particular verse you have in mind that will help clarify your meaning?

The reason I ask is that I absolutely believe Christ bore our sins and His death redeemed us. We are purchased by His blood. But I do not believe God was wrathful to Jesus as a payment for our sins. So I am not sure if we agree.

 

[Yeshua1]

To whom?

God the Father!

 

[Yeshua1]

I mostly agree. I agree Christ is a propitiation for our sins, but I question the language his death is a payment "for our sins". Is there a particular verse you have in mind that will help clarify your meaning?

The reason I ask is that I absolutely believe Christ bore our sins and His death redeemed us. We are purchased by His blood. But I do not believe God was wrathful to Jesus as a payment for our sins. So I am not sure if we agree.

God treated jesus as if he were sin upon that Cross, so whatever Lost experience when judged by God, he had that!

 

[JonC]

God treated jesus as if he were sin upon that Cross, so whatever Lost experience when judged by God, he had that!

You believe God cast Jesus into the "outter darkness"??????

 

[Yeshua1]

You believe God cast Jesus into the "outter darkness"??????

I believe that Jesus felt the same "whatever" lost sinners will when judged by God for their sins!

 

[JonC]

I believe that Jesus felt the same "whatever" lost sinners will when judged by God for their sins!

It isn't "whatever". It is the "second death" and being cast into the "outter darkness".

(I believe in a literal Hell)

 

[Yeshua1]

It isn't "whatever". It is the "second death" and being cast into the "outter darkness".

(I believe in a literal Hell)

Which Jesus experienced when forsaken by the father while on that Cross!

 

[JonC]

Which Jesus experienced when forsaken by the father while on that Cross!

Wow. Do you have a verse that states this is what Jesus experienced when forsaken to the cross?

 

[Yeshua1]

Wow. Do you have a verse that states this is what Jesus experienced when forsaken to the cross?

Do you have one that states to us that Jesus did not suffer the wrath of God for our sakes?