John 1: verse 12...alone? or does 1:13 explain it?

[Iconoclast]

MB,

Thanks for your response MB. let's take a look-

I call it a choice. Open your eyes most Jews rejected Christ

Originally you said men have "a right" to refuse God. So I needed clarification as I do not think any created person has a right to rebel as against the Creator.
I am aware that almost all Jews rejected Jesus. Only the elect remnant believed as paul explains quoting Isa.1 in romans9;
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Men are sinful this is true. Most are rebellious but some do respond to the gospel.

yes, we agree on the sinful condition of man, We agree that some believe the gospel, Why some believe and others do not is where we might have different ideas.

All men are drawn to Christ. and yes most resist.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I believe this speaks of God having His children scattered abroad, not only in Israel. So jew and gentile. It cannot mean all men ever born are drawn...

God being almighty means nothing is impossible with God.

ok

The Calvinist define sovereignty as God being unable to give men a choice

No Calvinist teaches this. Traditionalists like Leighton Flowers promote such a falsehood ...but he was never a Calvinist despite his claims.

 

[InTheLight]

ITL,
This is the time where you can offer SG,and the onlookers, why what he posted does not reflect your view....try a bit more than six words if you can

you aver ppl can seek God w/o being drawn.

Call on the name of the Lord is necessary

 

[Iconoclast]

Call on the name of the Lord is necessary

okay....that does not seem any different than what a Calvinist says, ITL. You might lean a bit more to the idea described as prevenient grace ., where we would see efficacious grace being the teaching of scripture.. But I will let SG tangle with you,

 

[SovereignGrace]

Absolutely false representation of my position.

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That is what you told @TCassidy several months ago, iirc. You said Paul was reiterating Psalm 14, but was not applicable today. Forgive me if I misunderstood your statement.

Please clarify where I went wrong with you view. Thanks.

 

[InTheLight]

That is what you told @TCassidy several months ago, iirc. You said Paul was reiterating Psalm 14, but was not applicable today. Forgive me if I misunderstood your statement.

Please clarify where I went wrong with you view. Thanks.

The reality is that verse in Psalms was written 3,000 years ago in an entirely different pre-Christian world to an entirely different audience.

Another reality is that people nowadays DO seek God. Just look at all the people that attend churches.

If "Any Man" Thirst

If "Any Man" Thirst

 

[SovereignGrace]

The reality is that verse in Psalms was written 3,000 years ago in an entirely different pre-Christian world to an entirely different audience.

Another reality is that people nowadays DO seek God. Just look at all the people that attend churches.

If "Any Man" Thirst

If "Any Man" Thirst

Which is why I said you aver that Romans 3:11-18 is not applicable today. The bible says none understand, no one seeks God, yet you say they do. I will side with the bible.

 

[MB]

Which is why I said you aver that Romans 3:11-18 is not applicable today. The bible says none understand, no one seeks God, yet you say they do. I will side with the bible.

Maybe you don't seek God but I do. I seek GOD everyday and every night. Every one who prays to God is seeking Him.Especially in times of crisis.
MB

 

[MB]

No Calvinist teaches this. Traditionalists like Leighton Flowers promote such a falsehood ...but he was never a Calvinist despite his claims.

So you believe even if a man is not elect. God can change His mind and allow some men to come to Him
MB

 

[HankD]

Maybe you don't seek God but I do. I seek GOD everyday and every night. Every one who prays to God is seeking Him.Especially in times of crisis.
MB

No one seeks God in the non-regenerate state of being.

Many billions have religion but that does not equal "seeking God" according to the scripture

 

[InTheLight]

Which is why I said you aver that Romans 3:11-18 is not applicable today. The bible says none understand, no one seeks God, yet you say they do. I will side with the bible.

You say the Bible says no one seeks God. You are quoting a verse in Romans that is quoting a verse in Psalms.

Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Isaiah 55:6

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”
Matthew 2:1‭-‬2

Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. And he sought to see who Jesus was, but could not because of the crowd, for he was of short stature.
Luke 19:1‭-‬3

Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”
Matthew 8:5‭-‬6






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[MB]

No one seeks God in the non-regenerate state of being.

Many billions have religion but that does not equal "seeking God" according to the scripture

I disagree with you. People are seeking God when they pray saved or not. Scripture tells us to seek God. Not only that but we will find Him when we seek Him with all our hearts.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Note the Bible says this is a fool who said this. Even if the fool may have been right he was over looking the one who wrote this Psalm. David before Bathsheba was a man after God's own heart. David at that time sought God. So as far as David was the fool was wrong.

Some men say this is absolutely true.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
If so then even Just men do not seek God
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

I disagree with you. People are seeking God when they pray saved or not. Scripture tells us to seek God. Not only that but we will find Him when we seek Him with all our hearts.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Note the Bible says this is a fool who said this. Even if the fool may have been right he was over looking the one who wrote this Psalm. David before Bathsheba was a man after God's own heart. David at that time sought God. So as far as David was the fool was wrong.

Some men say this is absolutely true.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
If so then even Just men do not seek God
MB

No lost sinner seeks God to save them!

 

[HankD]

I disagree with you. People are seeking God when they pray saved or not. Scripture tells us to seek God. Not only that but we will find Him when we seek Him with all our hearts.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Note the Bible says this is a fool who said this. Even if the fool may have been right he was over looking the one who wrote this Psalm. David before Bathsheba was a man after God's own heart. David at that time sought God. So as far as David was the fool was wrong.

Some men say this is absolutely true.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
If so then even Just men do not seek God
MB

Um I didn't really mean to give the idea that my response meant that I agreed with it
I often play the Devil's Advocate or speak vicariously for someone else without letting on that is what I am doing.

My own feeling is that in this age the Spirit is in the world convicting ALL mankind of sin and illuminating ALL men with a measure of His truth without which no one would seek Him.

Yes we are dead in trespasses and sins and that is why the Holy Spirit is necessary to pierce through our grave clothes to our dead ears.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

 

[MB]

No lost sinner seeks God to save them!

That isn't what the passage says in Psalm 14 it just plainly states seeks God. There is only one God no other. When people get on their knees and say " Dear God please help." You don't think they are seeking God? Some who do this don't know the first thing about God. Even if God doesn't hear them. They are seeking God. Everyone is a sinner even after they are saved. If anyone believes in Christ they are saved.I believe that in the end on judgement day many will be save,. that everyone else thought were lost.

Salvation is not as hard as some make it out to be. All we have to do is believe and it's a done deal. Surely you don't deny this?
MB

 

[JonC]

I often play the Devil's Advocate

Ha!!! I knew it.....

 

[HankD]

Ha!!! I knew it.....

Yes the role suits me well

 

[SovereignGrace]

So you believe even if a man is not elect. God can change His mind and allow some men to come to Him
MB

Numbers 23:19.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You say the Bible says no one seeks God. You are quoting a verse in Romans that is quoting a verse in Psalms.

Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Isaiah 55:6

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”
Matthew 2:1‭-‬2

Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. And he sought to see who Jesus was, but could not because of the crowd, for he was of short stature.
Luke 19:1‭-‬3

Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”
Matthew 8:5‭-‬6






Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Employ exegesis and do not extrapolate a verse from its context as you have in the above verses.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The reality is that verse in Psalms was written 3,000 years ago in an entirely different pre-Christian world to an entirely different audience.

Another reality is that people nowadays DO seek God. Just look at all the people that attend churches.

If "Any Man" Thirst

If "Any Man" Thirst

By using your logic, Leviticus 16 is not applicable today, either, seeing it was written 3,000 years in an entirely different pre-Christian world to an entirely different audience. 2 Timothy 3:16 whooshes right over your head.

 

[InTheLight]

By using your logic, Leviticus 16 is not applicable today, either, seeing it was written 3,000 years in an entirely different pre-Christian world to an entirely different audience. 2 Timothy 3:16 whooshes right over your head.

Joshua 24:15. Written to everyone? Or contextually written to the Israelites?

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