Pre Tribulation Rapture Questions

[Steve of Brownsburg]

1. Where is the direct reference that states that Christ is coming before the tribulation?
2. Is the Rapture the main subject in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 or was Paul answering a question concerning the saints that had died in the Lord?
3. Where is the timing of the saints being raised from the dead and the living caught up to meet the Lord in the air given in the context of versus 13-18 in cp 4 of 1Thessalonians?
4. Was Matthew 24:29-31 that speaks of Christ coming after the Tribulation spoken to the church or just to the Jews?

Brothers, I am not trying to be argumentative just want to have some input on these questions.

God Bless

Brother Steve

 

[SovereignGrace]

If you look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 1 Corinthians 15:50ff, Revelation 4:1, those who hold to a pre-trib rapture use these vss to support it. However, there is no timing mentioned in those vss, and all eschatological systems use them for their support.

How those who hold to the pre-trib view get it from Revelation 4:1 is mind boggling to me. They say that when John was called up, it typified the church being raptured. That is found nowhere in the text. They say that the church isn't mentioned from there through chapter 19. That's quite the stretch there, Armstrong.

However, from Jesus' own mouth He said 29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."[Matthew 24]
So, I am a post-tribber.

 

[SovereignGrace]

They also use the Ark as a picture of the pre-trib rapture. One small problem...the Ark went through the judgment and only those inside it were saved. For it to typify a pre-trib rapture, the Ark would have had to been caught up into the air and then came back down after the flood.

 

[Steve of Brownsburg]

In 1Thess 5:1-11 the timing is given as when this event will happen. "It's called the Day of the Lord". If you compare 4:18 with 5:11 Paul comforts the church and also in the prior verses states that the coming of the Lord is compared to a thief in the night. A thief only surprises those that aren't looking for him. Times and seasons are timing references in verse 1 which refers to the raising of the dead and catching up of the saved at the Second Coming of the Lord 4:15.

Remember when the God's word was inspired and given to the NT writers there were no chapter breaks. That being the case, it's best to read 1Thess 4:13 cp 5:1-11 as the referring to the same event and no new subject.

 

[SovereignGrace]

In 1Thess 5:1-11 the timing is given as when this event will happen. "It's called the Day of the Lord". If you compare 4:18 with 5:11 Paul comforts the church and also in the prior verses states that the coming of the Lord is compared to a thief in the night. A thief only surprises those that aren't looking for him. Times and seasons are timing references in verse 1 which refers to the raising of the dead and catching up of the saved at the Second Coming of the Lord 4:15.

Remember when the God's word was inspired and given to the NT writers there were no chapter breaks. That being the case, it's best to read 1Thess 4:13 cp 5:1-11 as the referring to the same event and no new subject.

So, just for clarification, what is your stance? I hope you don’t mind me asking you this?

 

[HankD]

They also use the Ark as a picture of the pre-trib rapture. One small problem...the Ark went through the judgment and only those inside it were saved. For it to typify a pre-trib rapture, the Ark would have had to been caught up into the air and then came back down after the flood.

Also we are told "as in the days of Lot" Luke 17:28.

a REMNANT was saved out of the wrath of God upon Sodom just before it came down from heaven.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Also we are told "as in the days of Lot" Luke 17:28.

a REMNANT was saved out of the wrath of God upon Sodom just before it came down from heaven.

So, are you pre, mid or post?

 

[HankD]

So, are you pre, mid or post?

I was pre but now I am seriously considering mid.

I understand the argument centered around the question "would Christ put the church (the bride of Christ) through the Great Tribulation?

no - First the Great Tribulation is the second 3 1/2 years half of the Tribulation.

The Body of Christ is all those truly saved from within the "visible" church or churches which are a "mixed multitude".

The "visible" church or churches have this message of purifying before the Lord Returns in all His glory.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 13
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Yeshua1]

I was pre but now I am seriously considering mid.

I understand the argument centered around the question "would Christ put the church (the bride of Christ) through the Great Tribulation?

no - First the Great Tribulation is the second 3 1/2 years half of the Tribulation.

The Body of Christ is all those truly saved from within the "visible" church or churches which are a "mixed multitude".

The "visible" church or churches have this message of purifying before the Lord Returns in all His glory.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 13
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

We need to separate the wrath of God from that of Man, as I do see the wrath of God poured directly out upon the earth right after the 2 Witness ascend back to Heaven...

 

[Yeshua1]

So, are you pre, mid or post?

I was pre strong, now post, but starting to inch towards more mid!

 

[Yeshua1]

If you look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 1 Corinthians 15:50ff, Revelation 4:1, those who hold to a pre-trib rapture use these vss to support it. However, there is no timing mentioned in those vss, and all eschatological systems use them for their support.

How those who hold to the pre-trib view get it from Revelation 4:1 is mind boggling to me. They say that when John was called up, it typified the church being raptured. That is found nowhere in the text. They say that the church isn't mentioned from there through chapter 19. That's quite the stretch there, Armstrong.

However, from Jesus' own mouth He said 29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."[Matthew 24]
So, I am a post-tribber.

A lot of this all depends on how one see the purpose of the Great tribulation, as some see it preparing national Israel to meet their real Messiah King Jesus, others to have God purify out His church, still others as the elect being saved out Jews etc!

 

[Steve of Brownsburg]

So, just for clarification, what is your stance? I hope you don’t mind me asking you this?

I am now Post Trib but I do not make it a test of fellowship

 

[HankD]

We need to separate the wrath of God from that of Man, as I do see the wrath of God poured directly out upon the earth right after the 2 Witness ascend back to Heaven...

OK I believe the GREAT Tribulation is the Wrath of God poured out upon the earth for rejection of the Gospel.
It is the last 3 1/2 years of The Tribulation.

I'm still undecided. Hey I am a mugwump.

 

[Yeshua1]

OK I believe the GREAT Tribulation is the Wrath of God poured out upon the earth for rejection of the Gospel.
It is the last 3 1/2 years of The Tribulation.

I'm still undecided. Hey I am a mugwump.

I tend to see 2 main things going on in Great tribulation, as God allows Mankind to have a final stab at ruling apart from God, as in Antichrist, and God destroys all of the manmade systems and kingdoms when Jesus returns. Also, Israel is being prepared to meet her coming God!

 

[agedman]

One of the more interesting passages from my aged mind is that presented by Paul:

51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written...
​

The sequence is interesting.

When one sees the term "sleep" often one considers that which is dead and buried. However, consider the presentation of "absent from the body, present (to be home) with the Lord."

Then there is the passage that states "...God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep."

Taking then these presentations as factual, the following may be consistent with the timeline presented by Paul.

Those already "present with the Lord" having their eternal form will be brought with him, and we "who are alive" and "persevere" (remain) being preserved by His grace, will be immediately changed into His likeness, and "raptured." The dead already in His presence "imperishable" and those alive changed, not two raptures but a single one effecting only those "changed" the "perishable body" putting on "incorruptible" is the rapture.

There is one such event, and it takes place prior to the millennium reign.

That calls into question the "rapture" that is popularly taught by some who would desire to escape that great tribulation.

I remain unconvinced that such teaching is merited, and have been drawn into the conclusion that the teaching may very well lead to dismay and delusion when it doesn't happen according to how some have presented.

Perhaps ,

"4They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”​

preceded by,

" 2that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires."​

is really all part of that time line which Paul also was presenting.

If I do not remain, I shall be with Him at His coming, and to those who do remain, do not let scoffers and mocking dismay and distract from the truth.

 

[Steve of Brownsburg]

The Parousia (coming of Christ) is a single event and always denotes presence. Christ is only coming one more time to raise the dead and change those who are alive at His coming. That's why we read words like last, first and a second time as used in the gospel of John 6, Hebrews 9 and Rev 20.

I do believe in a millennial reign of Christ in Reve 20 which also states that there are only two resurrections. One for the saved and the other for the lost separated by a 1,000 years. and lost.

 

[David Kent]

Matthew 13
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear

That portion seems to absolutely counter the pre tribulation rapture.

 

[HankD]

That portion seems to absolutely counter the pre tribulation rapture.

Yes - every system of eschatology has its difficulties.

 

[Steve of Brownsburg]

The Pre-Trib doctrine is of recent origin. The reason for my question of a direct reference stating that Christ will come before the tribulation remains unanswered is because there is none. Even the great Pre Trib teacher and author John Walvord states that there isn't one, you arrive there by circular reasoning.

 

[HankD]

The Pre-Trib doctrine is of recent origin. The reason for my question of a direct reference stating that Christ will come before the tribulation remains unanswered is because there is none. Even the great Pre Trib teacher and author John Walvord states that there isn't one, you arrive there by circular reasoning.

"John Walvoord states that there isn't one" Umm, how can he be a great PreTrib teacher if there isn't a tribulation if that is what you mean.

So, Isn't one what Steve? and do you have the quote of Walvoord stating there isn't one (whatever "it" is or isn't)?

If however you mean there is no answer to the PreTrib question then I would say that perhaps there is no answer which you will accept and yes it is a bit of an elusive area of eschatology.

the answer is that there is only ONE second coming and it starts with the purification and subsequent removal of His church from the wrath of God followed by His 1000 year rule and reign over His kingdom on earth. These are elements of His second appearing or coming.

Admittedly there is controversy about the timing and order of events surrounding His second coming. I kind of like the J. Vernon McGee view but not exactly.

Then comes the eternal state in the New Jerusalem.

Thanks