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The Bible teaches the mortal soul and the eternal sufferng of the lost.
- Thread starter 37818
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I don't understand. How did the soul of Jesus die on the Cross?
37818
Well-Known Member
Did you not read, ". . . his soul an offering for sin, . . ." and ". . . poured out his soul unto death: . . ." In Isaiah 53:10-12?
The soul in the flesh is through the blood which He paid in full for our sins before He physcally died, John 19:28-30, Leviticus 17:11, Romans 5:8. This truth stands against the false teaching of annihilationism, Jesus remaining conscious on the cross and having died in His soul, Psalms 22:1. Remember Jesus taught that both the body and soul perish (dies) in Hell (Matthew 10:28). What never dies is called their "worm" in the singular, not plural (Mark 9:48; Psalms 22:6). After the payment for sin was completed Jesus' soul was alive before He physically died, Luke 23:46, note Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
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Yes, I understand that Jesus made a drink offering but His Soul did not die, only His physical body, no?
Spot on Church Mouse Guy!
Christ's divine soul left Jesus and was commended to God. When the soul leaves the body the body dies. The soul is the core of the spirit, its attributes and attitudes. It is not, in my opinion a separate entity.
Yes, the death of our body does not end the existence of our human spirit (or Christ's divine spirit).
If we have been born anew, we go into the presence of the Lord, otherwise to Hades.
Scripture seems to indicate the lost undergo "eternal punishment." But this could refer to "eternal separation of God." Scripture also says the smoke of our torment rises forever and ever. Many believe this indicates eternal torment. But an alternate view is this indicates the eternal consequence of torment, i.e. eternal separation.
Debates on these topics rely on interpretive speculation, with not many changing their mind.
Christ's divine soul left Jesus and was commended to God. When the soul leaves the body the body dies. The soul is the core of the spirit, its attributes and attitudes. It is not, in my opinion a separate entity.
Yes, the death of our body does not end the existence of our human spirit (or Christ's divine spirit).
If we have been born anew, we go into the presence of the Lord, otherwise to Hades.
Scripture seems to indicate the lost undergo "eternal punishment." But this could refer to "eternal separation of God." Scripture also says the smoke of our torment rises forever and ever. Many believe this indicates eternal torment. But an alternate view is this indicates the eternal consequence of torment, i.e. eternal separation.
Debates on these topics rely on interpretive speculation, with not many changing their mind.
37818
Well-Known Member
No, Isaiah 53:10-12 teaches His soul died, and Isaiah 53:9 in the Hebrew actually should translate, "in His deaths." Jesus had two deaths on the cross, one He finished for sins (John 19:28-30) on the cross before His physical death and His physical death is for the resurrection from the dead (Romans 1:4).
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I think the problem is what is meant by He poured out His soul unto death, right? As for the Hebrew translation in 9, that is above my pay grade, which is layman back pew.
37818
Well-Known Member
You fail to believe the atonement was completed prior to His physical death (John 19:30). Jesus did not physically die until the payment of sin was complete. Add to this the fact that the written word of God teaches the death of the soul (Ezekiel 18:4; James 5:20; Matthew 10:28 ". . . to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ."
As far as John 19:30, I think His statement "it is finished" including His impending death when He gave us His Spirit. He laid down His life, not just His well being.
Yes, I agree, scripture indicates God can destroy the soul. Those that argue for eternal torment say destroy means "ruin" in this case. But I am with you, I think it means end the existence of the soul.
Yes, I agree, scripture indicates God can destroy the soul. Those that argue for eternal torment say destroy means "ruin" in this case. But I am with you, I think it means end the existence of the soul.
Yes, a whole lot of folks, citing several verses, believe our soul exists apart from our human spirit. I do not because no scripture I am aware of indicates a body without the spirit has a soul. So I am in the soul/spirit contingent. In my view, when the spirit departs the body dies, and the soul leaves as part of the spirit.
Both soul and spirit are immaterial and both "leave" the body at physical death. But as for the soul being part of the spirit - perhaps but yet they are distinct from each other.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In the inspired Koine the definite article is provided
Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης ἁγιάσαι ὑμᾶς ὁλοτελεῖς καὶ ὁλόκληρον ὑμῶν τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ ψυχὴ καὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀμέμπτως ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τηρηθείη
literally:
I pray God your whole the spirit and the soul and the body be preserved blameless
Very strong evidence that they are distinct entities in and of themselves.
No scripture I am aware of indicates a body without the spirit has a soul. When the spirit leaves the body, the soul goes with the spirit. Notice in Hebrews 4:12 we see three examples of things that go together, soul and spirit, joint and marrow, and thoughts and intents. Here we see a case for spirit/soul, body and mind. Now when the body dies and the spirit/soul departs, where does the mind go? The physical mind dies, the brain decays, but is the mind of our spirit the soul?
These concepts must be looked at slowly - it is meat and not milk. One can choke if not slowly chewed and swallowed (spiritually),
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
In the following paradigm:
Body - Earth awareness.
Soul - Self awareness.
Spirit - God awareness.
The word of God enables us to discern between self interest soulish thoughts and thoughts originating from the Spirit of God through our regenerated human spirit which motivate/drive our lives.
Soul function - self interest:
Luke 12
17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
He should have know through spiritual reasoning the following :
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die...
20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
37818
Well-Known Member
No. The very word is translated as "accomplished" in John 19:28, being said, ". . . all things were now accomplished, . . ." prior to Jesus receiving the vinegar.
It refers to the death of both body and soul. Eternal tormemt is not an issue here. Both the body and soul being dead in the "second death." (Revelation 14:11)