He treated Christ to be sin

[Van]

In a recently closed thread, it was asserted that the "double accusative construction" of 2 Corinthians 5:21 precluded the verb "epoiesen" to be translated as meaning "He treated."

In this Greek construction the verb takes two direct objects, a Person and a thing. The person is affected, and the thing is effected. So "the One knowing no sin" is the person affected, and "sin" is the thing effected (to be sin.)

So He treated the One knowing no sin to be sin reflects the grammatical form of the Greek text.

He did something (made or treated) to Christ, He treated him to be sin.

There is no requirement from Greek grammar for the translation choice of "made" over and against "treated."
Other equally viable choices are "He appointed him to be sin" and "He purposed him to be sin."

 

[The Archangel]

In a recently closed thread, it was asserted that the "double accusative construction" of 2 Corinthians 5:21 precluded the verb "epoiesen" to be translated as meaning "He treated."

In this Greek construction the verb takes two direct objects, a Person and a thing. The person is affected, and the thing is effected. So "the One knowing no sin" is the person affected, and "sin" is the thing effected (to be sin.)

So He treated the One knowing no sin to be sin reflects the grammatical form of the Greek text.

He did something (made or treated) to Christ, He treated him to be sin.

There is no requirement from Greek grammar for the translation choice of "made" over and against "treated."
Other equally viable choices are "He appointed him to be sin" and "He purposed him to be sin."

The BDAG on ποιέω

w. a double accusative, of the obj. and the pred. (Hom. et al.; LXX; ApcEsdr 4:27 p. 38, 32 Tdf. λίθους ἄρτους ποιήσας; Mel., P. 68, 494 ποιήσας ἡμᾶς ἱεράτευμα καινόν), make someone or someth. (into) someth. W. noun as predicate acc.: ποιήσω ὑμᾶς ἁλιεῖς ἀνθρώπων Mt 4:19. ὑμεῖς αὐτὸν (i.e. τὸν οἶκον τοῦ θεοῦ) ποιεῖτε σπήλαιον λῃστῶν 21:13; Mk 11:17; Lk 19:46. Cp. Mt 23:15b; J 2:16; 4:46, 54; cp. 2:11; Ac 2:36; 2 Cor 5:21;

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 840. (emphases mine).​

And this from Murray Harris:

With the next phrase, “he [God] made himself [Christ] to be sin,” we penetrate to the center of the atonement and stand in awe before one of the most profound mysteries in the universe. All the interpretations of the phrase have in common the idea of identification, the understanding that God caused Christ to be identified in some way with what was foreign to his experience, namely human sin. ἐποίησεν is here used with a double accusative, one a direct object (τὸν μὴ γνόντα), the other a predicate (ἁμαρτίαν). Although ποιεῖν τι can mean “make something into something (else),” the meaning here is not “God made the sinless one into sin” (JB), but “God caused the sinless one to be sin,” where ποιεῖν denotes causation or appointment and points to the divine initiative.

Murray J. Harris, The Second Epistle to the Corinthians: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Milton Keynes, UK: W.B. Eerdmans Pub. Co.; Paternoster Press, 2005), 451.
​

The point of both of these quotes is that "treated" is not in the scope of meaning here. Making (as in causing) Jesus to be sin is what is in view.

Again, you will never be right about this as long as you insist on "treated" for the translation of
ποιέω in 2 Corinthians 5:21.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

It helps to read the copy and paste:

"Although ποιεῖν τι can mean “make something into something (else),” the meaning here is not “God made the sinless one into sin” (JB), but “God caused the sinless one to be sin,” where ποιεῖν denotes causation or appointment and points to the divine initiative."

Thus God treated the One knowing no sin to be sin for our sake so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[The Archangel]

It helps to read the copy and paste:

"Although ποιεῖν τι can mean “make something into something (else),” the meaning here is not “God made the sinless one into sin” (JB), but “God caused the sinless one to be sin,” where ποιεῖν denotes causation or appointment and points to the divine initiative."

Thus God treated the One knowing no sin to be sin for our sake so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I read the quoted material, but I'm not quite sure you did. As I stated, "The point of both of these quotes is that "treated" is not in the scope of meaning here. Making (as in causing) Jesus to be sin is what is in view." ποιέω with the double accusative is what requires the meaning of "make" or "cause" here, and rules out "treated."

The material clearly states that this word with the double accusative need not be taken as "God made the sinless one into sin.” Instead the understanding should be what is found in the text: “God caused the sinless one to be sin.”

In either case "made" is not a synonym for "treated" and "caused" is not a synonym for "treated." Treated does not carry the connotation of God causing Jesus to be sin, which is what the text shows.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

First "treated" is not addressed directly but to appoint or designate or treat someone to be sin falls easily within the range of meanings. To treat or appoint or designate someone to be sin is causative.
The translation choice has been supported six ways from Sunday. And the choice resolves the theological dilemma.

It is a great solution. A winner. And a product of word study.

 

[Van]

JonC said: ↑
I don't see how "treated" can fall within the range of word meaning. It is, IMHO, systematically derived and (if that were a proof text) read into the verse ( e.g., the people or God could have treated Christ as if He were sinful).

I found Luke 2:48 where the NASB and nine other versions translate the word as treated. So I do not think I am guilty of ends driven translation. I looked at how the word was used, and the lexicon meaning, and saw appointed and dealt with, so I hit upon treated. Then I found treated widely used for the word. (10 versions).

From the Bluebible outline of usage.
G. to (make i.e.) render one anything

1. to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
2. to declare one anything

Now their may be a valid reason why treated cannot be the meaning in 2 Cor. 5:21, but so far no one in my opinion has made a viable argument.

#163 Van, Yesterday at 11:03 PM

 

[The Archangel]

First "treated" is not addressed directly but to appoint or designate or treat someone to be sin falls easily within the range of meanings. To treat or appoint or designate someone to be sin is causative.
The translation choice has been supported six ways from Sunday. And the choice resolves the theological dilemma.

It is a great solution. A winner. And a product of word study.

Only in your mind is this a great solution--and one that makes you run contrary to the text.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

Contrary to the text? Lets see, first the word's range of meaning did not include "treated." Luke 2:48 shows that many (10) translations use treated as a translation choice for the word. Then we had the meaning ran closer to causative, but designated, appointed, treated, rendered, and declared all are causative.

Treated may not be the inspired and intended meaning, but no one in my opinion has presented valid arguments that treated is not the possible meaning in this context.

 

[HankD]

The BDAG on ποιέω

w. a double accusative, of the obj. and the pred. (Hom. et al.; LXX; ApcEsdr 4:27 p. 38, 32 Tdf. λίθους ἄρτους ποιήσας; Mel., P. 68, 494 ποιήσας ἡμᾶς ἱεράτευμα καινόν), make someone or someth. (into) someth. W. noun as predicate acc.: ποιήσω ὑμᾶς ἁλιεῖς ἀνθρώπων Mt 4:19. ὑμεῖς αὐτὸν (i.e. τὸν οἶκον τοῦ θεοῦ) ποιεῖτε σπήλαιον λῃστῶν 21:13; Mk 11:17; Lk 19:46. Cp. Mt 23:15b; J 2:16; 4:46, 54; cp. 2:11; Ac 2:36; 2 Cor 5:21;

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 840. (emphases mine).​

And this from Murray Harris:

With the next phrase, “he [God] made himself [Christ] to be sin,” we penetrate to the center of the atonement and stand in awe before one of the most profound mysteries in the universe. All the interpretations of the phrase have in common the idea of identification, the understanding that God caused Christ to be identified in some way with what was foreign to his experience, namely human sin. ἐποίησεν is here used with a double accusative, one a direct object (τὸν μὴ γνόντα), the other a predicate (ἁμαρτίαν). Although ποιεῖν τι can mean “make something into something (else),” the meaning here is not “God made the sinless one into sin” (JB), but “God caused the sinless one to be sin,” where ποιεῖν denotes causation or appointment and points to the divine initiative.

Murray J. Harris, The Second Epistle to the Corinthians: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Milton Keynes, UK: W.B. Eerdmans Pub. Co.; Paternoster Press, 2005), 451.
​

The point of both of these quotes is that "treated" is not in the scope of meaning here. Making (as in causing) Jesus to be sin is what is in view.

Again, you will never be right about this as long as you insist on "treated" for the translation of
ποιέω in 2 Corinthians 5:21.

The Archangel

Good research.

 

[Van]

Good research.

Yes, the research supported my position.

Although ποιεῖν τι can mean “make something into something (else),” the meaning here is not “God made the sinless one into sin” (JB), but “God caused the sinless one to be sin,” where ποιεῖν denotes causation or appointment and points to the divine initiative.

 

[HankD]

Yes, the research supported my position.

Yes, the research supported my position.

You missed the next phrase?

"Although ποιεῖν τι can mean “make something into something (else),” the meaning here is not “God made the sinless one into sin” (JB), but “God caused the sinless one to be sin,” where ποιεῖν denotes causation or appointment and points to the divine initiative."

 

[Van]

As you may know, the issue is how did God do it. God causing by treating him to be sin is not a problem, God making God to be sin is nonsense. To treat or appoint or designate someone to be sin is causative.. the Divine initiative.

 

[HankD]

As you may know, the issue is how did God do it. God causing by treating him to be sin is not a problem, God making God to be sin is nonsense...

1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[Van]

God treating the One knowing no sin to be sin for our sake was a good thing.

 

[The Archangel]

God treating the One knowing no sin to be sin for our sake was a good thing.

Except... that’s not what the verse says.... so...

The Archangel


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[Van]

It is always nice to have a someone with an opinion. Treated is a possible translation choice, and contextually seems the one with the least baggage. Appointed and designated also seem more likely than made, given the double accusative construction.

 

[Yeshua1]

I read the quoted material, but I'm not quite sure you did. As I stated, "The point of both of these quotes is that "treated" is not in the scope of meaning here. Making (as in causing) Jesus to be sin is what is in view." ποιέω with the double accusative is what requires the meaning of "make" or "cause" here, and rules out "treated."

The material clearly states that this word with the double accusative need not be taken as "God made the sinless one into sin.” Instead the understanding should be what is found in the text: “God caused the sinless one to be sin.”

In either case "made" is not a synonym for "treated" and "caused" is not a synonym for "treated." Treated does not carry the connotation of God causing Jesus to be sin, which is what the text shows.

The Archangel

It doe snot state as Van wants it to, that God saw/treated/Jesus as Ih was sin, but that God somehow caused Him to actually be sin, and yet remain still the sinless Son of God!

 

[percho]

It is always nice to have a someone with an opinion. Treated is a possible translation choice, and contextually seems the one with the least baggage. Appointed and designated also seem more likely than made, given the double accusative construction.

Do you not find it strange that not one of the seven who translated as treated in Luke did not translate as treated in 2 Cor?


Do you wonder why?

 

[Van]

Do you not find it strange that not one of the seven who translated as treated in Luke did not translate as treated in 2 Cor?

Do you wonder why?

Yes. We can guess, but then we might not guess right.

I have no idea why you said 7 rather than 10, but I can guess.

Why did they not choose "appointed" or designated or purposed or declared. I can guess (group think), since the Divine initiative points to causing via treating or designating or appointing or declaring.

 

[Van]

It doe snot state as Van wants it to, that God saw/treated/Jesus as Ih was sin, but that God somehow caused Him to actually be sin, and yet remain still the sinless Son of God!

Thanks for offering to not be sin while being sin. I will pass. I like to not be sin but treated to be sin.
That kinda sounds like a sin sacrifice.