The Cure for Calvinism

[Iconoclast]

Ran the Man,

Calvinism is an upper middle class to wealthy white enclave thing.

There is some truth to this, in that wealthy white persons usually are well read, and have the means to invest in extra books having more in the way of disposable income.
That being said, God's grace is for all persons and many non-white brethren in poor countries devour books made available to them by way of donations. Missionaries do great work in just translating scripture into the native language of the persons they minister to.

You move outside that bubble, you won't believe Calvinism anymore.

This is of course another falsehood with no foundation.

 

[Iconoclast]

It sure seems that way.
MB

The thing is this kind of interaction demonstrates how sad many people are in their general understanding of biblical worldview.

 

[Reformed1689]

The thing is this kind of interaction demonstrates how sad many people are in their general understanding of biblical worldview.

Or lack of understanding to be more precise...

 

[Iconoclast]

InTheLight

I was attempting to illustrate that your statement about traveling the world will free you from Calvinism is just as silly as a statement about giraffes voting.

Thanks for being objective here ITL and observing the misguided nature of the post.

 

[Iconoclast]

"davidtaylorjr,

Or lack of understanding to be more precise..

.

Do you struggle sometimes to both be patient and yet praying for wisdom as to how to get new people "up to speed" as quickly as possible? You and I both know that it is enough of a struggle to disciple people who have a willing spirit, much less those who oppose themselves.

 

[JonC]

"davidtaylorjr,
.

Do you struggle sometimes to both be patient and yet praying for wisdom as to how to get new people "up to speed" as quickly as possible? You and I both know that it is enough of a struggle to disciple people who have a willing spirit, much less those who oppose themselves.

I know the how difficult it is to point past human tradition to Scripture. You have to keep in mind that we all have blinders. As C. H. Spurgeon noted, we all contextualize God's word to our understanding and there lies the rub of our finite, human minds.

I recommend never trying to get new people "up to speed" as quickly as possible. That type of indoctrination never works.

For the Christian, discipleship is an ongoing process which involves so much more than the acquisition of knowledge (much less the adoption of another's theology). It is a journey of growth taken with and in Christ.

Calvinism is not a sign of Christian maturity any more than the fact I was once a Calvinist is an indication Calvinism is wrong.

Calvinists are not the most learned. They are not the least learned. They are Christians who have weighed the teachings of Calvinism and decided they are correct. Other Christians fully understand and have weighed Calvinism and found it lacking. And there are those on both sides who do not understand opposing views.

 

[Rob_BW]

typical smug baptist.

You post this, and can't even see the irony.

I hate to break it to you, but you're the new kid on the block. @tyndale1946 , on the other hand, has been a gracious and caring member of this board for years. We've had innumerable interactions with him, and while he certainly has his beliefs, he has consistently dealt with others here with a spirit of charity and kindness.

You, on the other hand, have jumped in here to immediately begin your anti-Calvinism crusade. Your internet etiquette is sorely lacking (as are your debate skills, but that's a matter for another time). You've cluttered up the board with your rants, and then have the audacity to call a long time member a "typical smug baptist," without a care as to how ridiculous that post will seem to the other long time members.

What you need to do, if you plan on sticking around, is slow down. Reread your posts before you hit reply, and ask your self if you're bringing light or heat. If debating Calvinism vs Arminianism is your purpose here, have at it. The board even has a forum designated for that purpose.

 

[tyndale1946]

You post this, and can't even see the irony.

I hate to break it to you, but you're the new kid on the block. @tyndale1946 , on the other hand, has been a gracious and caring member of this board for years. We've had innumerable interactions with him, and while he certainly has his beliefs, he has consistently dealt with others here with a spirit of charity and kindness.

You, on the other hand, have jumped in here to immediately begin your anti-Calvinism crusade. Your internet etiquette is sorely lacking (as are your debate skills, but that's a matter for another time). You've cluttered up the board with your rants, and then have the audacity to call a long time member a "typical smug baptist," without a care as to how ridiculous that post will seem to the other long time members.

What you need to do, if you plan on sticking around, is slow down. Reread your posts before you hit reply, and ask your self if you're bringing light or heat. If debating Calvinism vs Arminianism is your purpose here, have at it. The board even has a forum designated for that purpose.

Thanks for that my brother in the Lord, you don't how much that means to me... I will tell you this Ran the Man, we just lost a well respected Administrator Tom Cassidy who went to be Lord this month... If he were here I can tell you, he wouldn't have put up with your antics, and you would been long gone to find another board... We are trying to be kind to you but you are stretching our kindness... Brother Glen

 

[Rob_BW]

Thanks for that my brother in the Lord, you don't how much that means to me... I will tell you this Ran the Man, we just lost a well respected Administrator Tom Cassidy who went to be Lord this month... If he were here I can tell you, he wouldn't have put up with your antics, and you would been long gone to find another board... We are trying to be kind to you but you are stretching our kindness... Brother Glen

And I can't believe I'm defending you, after you made me read Johnathan Edwards...

J/K, love you, man.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

I know the how difficult it is to point past human tradition to Scripture.

I have come to find out that I do not view many of your ideas as scriptural.
You inisist on calling everything human tradition and you are welcome to do that, but I am not following you there.

You have to keep in mind that we all have blinders. As C. H. Spurgeon noted, we all contextualize God's word to our understanding and there lies the rub of our finite, human minds.

Of course everyone has differences in understanding, different levels of maturity.

I recommend never trying to get new people "up to speed" as quickly as possible. That type of indoctrination never works.

I believe this is wrong for sure. I was not speaking of indoctrination. I was speaking of a rapid view of what is scripture, Who is God, What is God;s Eternal Purpose being worked out in our time and since the cross.
A person being told and taught a proper biblical framework will develop a hunger for those things God wants Him to be hungry for, I have seen this work many times, and seen changes overtake whole churches.


[QUOTE]For the Christian, discipleship is an ongoing process which involves so much more than the acquisition of knowledge ([/QUOTE]
Agreed it is more than raw knowledge and random facts.

much less the adoption of another's theology).

Confessional churches equip people to move forward rapidly. It is not just the fact of what the confessions teach, but the obedience of faith we are called to.
You wondered the other day if people are reading people like TED Dekker, and others... a search online suggests he is a writer , but some doubt as to if he is even a Christian. I do not find such reading helpful. You of course are more than welcome to do so.

OTE] It is a journey of growth taken with and in Christ.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.

Calvinism is not a sign of Christian maturity

Again I do not agree with you overall. The five points do not guarantee proper doing of the Christian life, but a person knowing that God is in total control of everything that comes to pass is going to stack up pretty well in American churches

any more than the fact I was once a Calvinist is an indication Calvinism is wrong.

I am going to refrain from commenting in detail as you read into my responses more than I offer, but you never really convinced anyone that you held these teaches in the mainstream. You like Leighton Flowers have not convinced anyone on that score.

Calvinists are not the most learned. They are not the least learned. They are Christians who have weighed the teachings of Calvinism and decided they are correct. Other Christians fully understand and have weighed Calvinism and found it lacking. And there are those on both sides who do not understand opposing views.

okay

 

[asterisktom]

oh yeah, and a good collection of LPs, cassettes, and some Hemmingway helps.

Yes, Hemmingway. By all means. Make the man who blew his brains out your life coach.

 

[JonC]

JonC,

I have come to find out that I do not view many of your ideas as scriptural.
You inisist on calling everything human tradition and you are welcome to do that, but I am not following you there....



okay

When it comes to other Christian views, what I am saying is we are not to judge someone else's servant. Servents stand fall to their own master. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

I may argue against some of your interpretations, and certainly we hold different about what Scripture implies. We argue here as this is the nature of the board (I wish I could say "iron sharpening iron", but I don't believe it is so here). BUT I would never encourage you to simply adopt my view.

I would love for you to realize Christianity is larger than Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I would love for you to understand that many do understand Calvinism and still reject the theology. But that is not important.

We direct people to Scripture, even if their convictions lead them away from our traditions and understanding. The goal here is a dialogue where Christians can explain their view and understand an opposing view.

There are several here, like me, who do understand Calvinism and were at one time Calvinists. There are reasons we abandoned the theology. That does not mean we want others to blindly follow.

You are quick to claim people like me, who were once Calvinists (even preached and taught Calvinistic doctrine) were not really so. But this seems to speak more of arrogance than honesty.

To point - you are unable to demonstrate even one aspect of my former Calvinistic belief that would make me then any less genuine a Calvinist than are you now. It's just foolish "puffery" on your part - baseless charges. I suspect because you cannot imagine a Christian truly understanding Calvinism and tossing it asside like garbage. But many of us have, and we have because of our studies in Scripture.

I would rather a Christian honestly believe an erroneous theology and live for Christ than to merely be indoctrinated in a correct theology. I would rather see an immature believer on fire for God than a more mature Christian defending his theological stance. I think perhaps God uses one and discards the other.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I generally find that the most common gods in the world today are Mammon and Caesar. I'm not too worried about yoga and meditation.

Ommmmm, ommmmm

 

[JonC]

Ommmmm, ommmmm

Meditative yoga sounds more like "Ommmmhhh..oh...ouch...ahhhh....help"

 

[tyndale1946]

Meditative yoga sounds more like "Ommmmhhh..oh...ouch...ahhhh....help"

Jon mine sounds more like this... Ommmmhhh... ... Brother Glen

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

When it comes to other Christian views, what I am saying is we are not to judge someone else's servant. Servents stand fall to their own master. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

I agree in part....what you consider other Christian views is between you and the Lord. I do not trust your judgment.

I may argue against some of your interpretations, and certainly we hold different about what Scripture implies.

That is fine.And yes we have larger differences than I first thought.

We argue here as this is the nature of the board (I wish I could say "iron sharpening iron", but I don't believe it is so here). BUT I would never encourage you to simply adopt my view.

The value is in the interaction, not so much as who necessarily switches views.

I would love for you to realize Christianity is larger than Calvinism vs. Arminianism.

That is nice JonC , but who says I do not realize that. This is part of what can go wrong. You seem to think you can ascribe motives, thoughts, and understandings that no one has offered, even to the meaning of a smiley emoticon, or a "funny" comment. The thing is I find your skill in this area, defective.

I would love for you to understand that many do understand Calvinism and still reject the theology. But that is not important.[/QUOTE]

I have never met such a person, only apostates in that they thought they grasped it, but did not.

[QUOTE]We direct people to Scripture, even if their convictions lead them away from our traditions and understanding

.

I do not buy what you're selling here at all. Reformed Christians derive what they believe from scripture, that is why all Confessions and Catechisms that are worthwhile go there first.Your philosophical musings look to detract from that, so while you are welcome to them, I do not share them at all.

The goal here is a dialogue where Christians can explain their view and understand an opposing view.

Yes it is. It is also to offer correction.

There are several here, like me, who do understand Calvinism and were at one time Calvinists. There are reasons we abandoned the theology. That does not mean we want others to blindly follow.

You evidently want to put that forward, That is your right. I have a right to think through what you post and form my own conclusions as you try and do with us.

You are quick to claim people like me, who were once Calvinists (even preached and taught Calvinistic doctrine) were not really so. But this seems to speak more of arrogance than honesty.[/QUOTE]

You can make such an accusation, but I think you have revealed who you are over time. I am not the only one who has noticed this. A few years ago you made similar accusations. I did not forget. You want honesty , you have got it now. I do not trust you or your motives now. I will leave it at that for now.

To point - you are unable to demonstrate even one aspect of my former Calvinistic belief that would make me then any less genuine a Calvinist than are you now. It's just foolish "puffery" on your part - baseless charges.

You can say what you want but I Know better. I cannot say more or I will be censored.

I suspect because you cannot imagine a Christian truly understanding Calvinism and tossing it asside like garbage. But many of us have, and we have because of our studies in Scripture.

You can go with that. But it was you who threw a hissy fit last week and deleted posts and threads where you melted down and attacked us as a group, Martin, Biblicist,myself and others...You removed the thread but not before we all saw it.
If you feel that way, own up to it. Do not try this double minded ,two faced nonsense after deleting the posts.

I would rather a Christian honestly believe an erroneous theology and live for Christ than to merely be indoctrinated in a correct theology. I would rather see an immature believer on fire for God than a more mature Christian defending his theological stance. I think perhaps God uses one and discards the other.

Again you have your thoughts and views. Thats just wonderful. I personally see both people on fire with correct theology

 

[JonC]

JonC,....You evidently want to put that forward, That is your right. I have a right to think through what you post and form my own conclusions as you try and do with us.

I can agree that you have the ability to hold predjudiced opinions about people with whom you strongly disagree. But as a Christian I cannot agree you have that right. This is the point of the passage I presented (that you partially agreed with). Christians simply do not have that right.

In the world (apart from Christ) men may hold such opinions as they are divorced from the Lord. But even in worldly debate they do not have the right to voice their prejudices in contradiction to another's expressed belief.

 

[JonC]

What "needs to be cured" is not Calvinism. Calvinism is one of many theologies. It is subject the limitation of human reasoning. The real Calvinist understands this limitation and sees his understanding for the imperfection it it - not imperfect for what it represents but imperfect because it is theology (man's study of God).

What needs to be cured are Christians who hold their Calvinism as cultists hold to their false doctrine.

What needs to be cured are Christians who believe it is their mission to combat Calvinism instead of spreading the gospel of Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

I can agree that you have the ability to hold predjudiced opinions about people with whom you strongly disagree. But as a Christian I cannot agree you have that right. This is the point of the passage I presented (that you partially agreed with). Christians simply do not have that right.

In the world (apart from Christ) men may hold such opinions as they are divorced from the Lord. But even in worldly debate they do not have the right to voice their prejudices in contradiction to another's expressed belief.

Jon C;
I do not drift into philosophy. You have a right to express what you want but what is expressed is subjective as far as men are concerned. God will be the only judge of heart motives. God keeps an account of all sin, both external and heart issues.
I do not get into this cat and mouse, accusing scenarios. I will speak openly and that is what I will do with you now.
In times past I refrained from doing so, as I had no agenda, and try and give people slack.

That being said, when a person says one thing, acts one way then changes and morphs into something else...I adjust and act accordingly. When a person attacks I get it, but I will deal with it with whatever grace I can discover.

 

[Reynolds]

What "needs to be cured" is not Calvinism. Calvinism is one of many theologies. It is subject the limitation of human reasoning. The real Calvinist understands this limitation and sees his understanding for the imperfection it it - not imperfect for what it represents but imperfect because it is theology (man's study of God).

What needs to be cured are Christians who hold their Calvinism as cultists hold to their false doctrine.

What needs to be cured are Christians who believe it is their mission to combat Calvinism instead of spreading the gospel of Christ.

The problem I see first hand is the young Calvinists who are in Seminary. Many come back to their home churches with the goal or cramming Calvinism down everyone's throat. The last thing 99% of people want to do at church is debate Calvinism. The new breed of Calvinists seem to be on a crusade to conquer the SBC for Calvin. It does not annoy me that they believe what they believe,it annoys me that they don't know when to shut up about it. I respect Calvinism much more than I respect "traditionalism", but I do not respect the division and disunity the new breed of Calvinists are causing. My best friend is an older hyper Calvinist, he continually comments about how bad the "new breed" annoy him.