The Supportive Witnesses by Christ in Jn.6:44-46

[The Biblicist]

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Christ calls upon at least two prophets (as he uses the plural not the singular) that will confirm his statement in verse 44 concerning the Father drawing persons and what that means. Those two prophets are:

1. Isaiah 54:13

And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

2. Jeremiah 31:33-34

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

In both contexts Isaiah and Jeremiah are referring to "all thy children" of the new covenant promise. Indeed, Jeremiah 31:31-34 is directly quoted twice by the writer of Hebrews (heb. 8:10-13; 10:15-17) and explicitly called the "new" covenant.

These texts define the nature of being drawn by the father as "teaching" by inward divine revelation that transforms their hearts "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" rather than being taught by humans "and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor....saying know the Lord: for they shall ALL KNOW ME."

This internal work of drawing/teaching/writing/knowing is effectual in every single person being thus drawn/taught/written as they are "ALL" his "children" and "ALL" shall "know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them."

These supportive witnesses by Christ prove that:

1. "all" taught are all his "children" - thus him drawn is him raised up

2. This drawing/teaching/internal revelation is effectual in "all" drawn

3. Therefore, Jesus is continuing to speak about "all" given which equals all who come in John 6:36-37 but providing the reason why they all come who are all given and that is because of the effectual internal revelatory work of God that transforms their hearts.

Hence, the supportive witnesses Christ calls upon repudiate that "all" refers to every human from Adam to the last living man on earth.

Hence, the supportive witnesses Christ calls upon repudiate that this is a conditional drawing as the witnesses demand it is effectual in "all" thus taught.

Hence, the supportive witnesses Christ calls upon repudiate this drawing is external due to human influence as this is purely an internal supernatural work of God working where no human can work. Verse 46 confirms that those taught did not physically see God as an external manifestation but this is purely an internal supernatural work of God.

Hence, Arminian exposition is wholly and totally repudiated by the prophetic witnesses called upon by Christ as supportive witnesses to what he means by drawing and who is being drawn and what drawing consists of.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Amen! All those who have been taught by the Father run to the Son for salvation.

 

[Van]

Yet another thread pushing the same bogus analysis of scripture.

How does God put His law in our "inward parts?" By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Thus an action that occurs after we have been redeemed in Christ. And therefore having nothing to do with being drawn by the call or invitation of the gospel.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but only after we have heard and learned from the Father do we come to Him, enter Christ spiritually.

And then we get for the umpteenth time the backwards assertion all drawn come, rather than what scripture says, all that come were drawn. Again and again they repeat unstudied claims.

 

[37818]

John 6:45, Isaiah 54:13, 1 John 5:9-11.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yet another thread pushing the same bogus analysis of scripture.

How does God put His law in our "inward parts?" By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Thus an action that occurs after we have been redeemed in Christ. And therefore having nothing to do with being drawn by the call or invitation of the gospel.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but only after we have heard and learned from the Father do we come to Him, enter Christ spiritually.

And then we get for the umpteenth time the backwards assertion all drawn come, rather than what scripture says, all that come were drawn. Again and again they repeat unstudied claims.

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Jeremiah 31:33 repudiates your interpretation as God says that this internal action by God is not due to external men but is a sovereign act of God that produces saving knowledge. Jesus says "this is eternal life that they might know the true God and..." and this revelatory knowledge is created in the heart by God. That created revelatory knowledge is eternal life because it is the substance and hope of faith, thus, the very creation of a believing heart. The writing on the heart changes the heart. Paul directly refers to this internal creative revelatory knowledge/light (2 Cor. 3:3; 4:6-7). Likens it to Genesis 1:3 as an effectual call with creative power. Moreover, both texts that Jesus calls upon restrict "all" to new covneant (quoted in hebrew 8 and called the "new" covenant) people alone denying this is a universal drawing. Last, drawing as used in scripture is simeltaneous with coming.

 

[Van]

More nonsense, the indwelling is "not due to external men but is a sovereign act of God."

Does Jeremiah 31:33 say "saving knowledge" as claimed? Nope, just another piece of man-made doctrine read into scripture.

Does 2 Corinthians 3:3 refer to our witness for Christ as we follow the leading of our indwelt Helper? Yes, Does this or any other verse support "the internal call," that enables belief? Nope

Lastly does 2 Corinthians 4:6-7 refer to the gospel of Christ as "light?" Yes. Does this support in any way the "internal call?" Nope

There is no support, just claims where no support exists.

 

[The Biblicist]

More nonsense, the indwelling is "not due to external men but is a sovereign act of God."

Yes, everything you are saying utter and complete nonsense!

Does Jeremiah 31:33 say "saving knowledge" as claimed? Nope, just another piece of man-made doctrine read into scripture.

The text is dealing with the NEW covenant as it is quoted by the writer of Hebrews and explicitly called the "new" covenant. The knowledge involved is saving knowledge as it is that knowledge that makes them his people and he their God - read it!

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is INTERNAL REVELATORY knowledge as it does not come from "and they shall teach no more EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOR, AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING , KNOW THE LORD." WHY? "FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM UNTO THE GREATEST OF THEM." How? "I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS"

Notice, it is placed by God "in their inward parts" and he writes "it in thier hearts"! THE DIRECT RESULT "will be their God and they shall be my people" This is saving knowledge imparted directly by God into their inner most being and heart. That is why no man has to say to them "know God" because every single last one of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" know God due to this internal supernatural revelatory knowledge.

This is precisely what Jesus describes in John 17:3 "THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE" What is? "that they might KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD and" hence, Jeremiahs is talking about saving knowledge imparted by God that no man imparts. This is what Paul is describing in 2 Cor. 4:6

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

What time in history is Paul referring to with regard to the bold underlined print above Van? You know he is referring to Genesis 1:3. What did God do in Genesis 1:3 He spoke light into existence! In the context of 2 Corinthians 4:1-7 the lost condition is described as being in darkness and it is this command of God that speaks light, metaphorical light - 'the light OF KNOWLEDGE of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ". Do you understand those words? No, you don't so I will break them down in baby bites for you. The "knowledge of the glory of God" God speaks into existence - that is an effectual call of light in darkness. It is the "knowledge" of God that is only seen "in the face of Jesus Christ" meaning when God effectually calls this knowledge into existence within the darkened heart what you SEE in the sense of KNOWING is Jesus Christ as presented in the gospel (vv. 5,7) or SAVING KNOWLEDGE as presented in the gospel but it was not imparted by man (v. 7) because no man can put this knowledge into the heart. It gets in their by divine fiat, effectual calling into existience just as God effectually called literal light into darkness - thus replacing the darkness with light of the gospel in the heart - or a personal experiential knowledge of God through Jesus Christ.

This is the KNOWLEGE Jeremiah speaks about - Jer. 31:33-35 which makes you his people
This is the KNOWLEGE Jesus speaks about - Jn. 17:3 which is eternal life
This is the KNOWLEGE Paul speaks about - 2 Cor. 4:6

Does 2 Corinthians 3:3 refer to our witness for Christ as we follow the leading of our indwelt Helper? Yes, Does this or any other verse support "the internal call," that enables belief? Nope

Lastly does 2 Corinthians 4:6-7 refer to the gospel of Christ as "light?" Yes. Does this support in any way the "internal call?" Nope

There is no support, just claims where no support exists.

Is it because you can't read too good or you just ignore the texts you are quoting? Which is it because clearly deny the gospel preacher has any part (other than bringing it to the external ear) in this internal act of God that produces this saving knowledge in the heart: Read:

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

No one denies that God has chosen and sent preachers to carry the gospel to the EXTERNAL EAR of the elect but that is the furtherest point any man can bring the gospel. INTERNAL REvELATION or speaking it into existence within the heart, or what is an effectual call is God's power alone as in Genesis 1:3.

 

[Van]

It does not matter how many copy and paste blurbs are posted, there is no support whatsoever in scripture for (1) Irresistible grace, (2) internal call (3) the gift of faith, or (4) instilled saving knowledge.

When God transfers an individual into Christ spiritually, that act of giving the person to Christ results in the person being made alive eternally, and they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever which leads to our intimate knowledge of Christ Jesus, John 17:3. There is no support whatsoever in scripture for (1) Irresistible grace, (2) the internal call, (4) the gift of faith, or (4) instilled saving knowledge. Before an individual is given (transferred into) Christ, they are chosen through faith in the truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

It does not matter how many copy and paste blurbs are posted, there is no support whatsoever in scripture for (1) Irresistible grace, (2) internal call (3) the gift of faith, or (4) instilled saving knowledge.
.

This is why you are on my ignore list because your just a religious hack who peddles complete nonsense. Nobody can take you seriously. Bye bye!

 

[Van]

Sadly, when the truth of scripture refutes mistaken doctrine, those who are invested in that doctrine turn their wrath on the messenger.

Was Christ presented in the OT? Yes.

What does it mean that everyone who has (1) heard, and (2) learned from the Father comes to Me. (John 6:45) "Heard" refers both to hearing or being exposed in some way to the gospel of Christ and understanding the message. Learned refers to accepting the truth of the gospel and putting our trust fully in Christ alone for our salvation, now and forever. "Comes to Me" refers to being given or transferred into Christ spiritually, so everyone whose faith in Christ is credited as righteousness is put into Christ by God.

Teaching by the Father does not refer to some unstated tractor beam God uses to compel people to believe, but the power of the gospel to persuade individuals to put their trust in Christ.

Scripture does not say that all who were drawn come to Jesus, but all that come to Jesus were drawn.

Just read your bible, the truth is not hidden from objective analysis.

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus calls on prophetic witnesses for verification of his assertion in John 6:44. These prophetic witness clearly identify "all" such drawn/taught by the Father to be new covenant persons rather than all mankind. For example, the passage quoted by Christ from Isaiah 54:13 identifies them as "thy children" and Jeremiah 31:33-34 demands all taught in this manner are his people.

Moreover, Jeremiah makes it clear that this drawing work is strictly an INTERIOR work of God within man that no man/prophet/preacher/etc. is involved as Jeremiah says that other men will no longer have to say "know God" because "ALL" of those thus taught by God will know him savingly as they shall be "his people" and their sins will be forgiven.

This work is performed by God alone and UNSEEN INSIDE of man and thus both the hearing and learning is an INTERNAL UNSEEN learning. Jesus supports this fact in the very next verse (ver. 46) by saying that such drawn/taught/heard/learned persons have never visibly seen God because God does this UNSEEN by any man.

I went over these scriptures in detail in the post above. Van's response to the evidence I provided was absolutely ZERO/NADA and he could not respond with any objective evidence and so he just resorted to his common defense - repeat his disproven assertion and claim victory. That is why he is on my ignore list.

 

[Van]

Ah, the old, I rebutted the arguments already, so I will now copy and past my arguments again.

Here is my rebuttal to the mistaken view of John 6:45
What does it mean that everyone who has (1) heard, and (2) learned from the Father comes to Me. (John 6:45) "Heard" refers both to hearing or being exposed in some way to the gospel of Christ and understanding the message. Learned refers to accepting the truth of the gospel and putting our trust fully in Christ alone for our salvation, now and forever. "Comes to Me" refers to being given or transferred into Christ spiritually, so everyone whose faith in Christ is credited as righteousness is put into Christ by God.

Teaching by the Father does not refer to some unstated tractor beam God uses to compel people to believe, but the power of the gospel to persuade individuals to put their trust in Christ.

Scripture does not say that all who were drawn come to Jesus, but all that come to Jesus were drawn.

When God transfers an individual into Christ spiritually, that act of giving the person to Christ results in the person being made alive eternally, and they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever which leads to our intimate knowledge of Christ Jesus, John 17:3. There is no support whatsoever in scripture for (1) Irresistible grace, (2) the internal call, (4) the gift of faith, or (4) instilled saving knowledge. Before an individual is given (transferred into) Christ, they are chosen through faith in the truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, everything you are saying utter and complete nonsense!



The text is dealing with the NEW covenant as it is quoted by the writer of Hebrews and explicitly called the "new" covenant. The knowledge involved is saving knowledge as it is that knowledge that makes them his people and he their God - read it!

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is INTERNAL REVELATORY knowledge as it does not come from "and they shall teach no more EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOR, AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING , KNOW THE LORD." WHY? "FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM UNTO THE GREATEST OF THEM." How? "I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS"

Notice, it is placed by God "in their inward parts" and he writes "it in thier hearts"! THE DIRECT RESULT "will be their God and they shall be my people" This is saving knowledge imparted directly by God into their inner most being and heart. That is why no man has to say to them "know God" because every single last one of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" know God due to this internal supernatural revelatory knowledge.

This is precisely what Jesus describes in John 17:3 "THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE" What is? "that they might KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD and" hence, Jeremiahs is talking about saving knowledge imparted by God that no man imparts. This is what Paul is describing in 2 Cor. 4:6

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

What time in history is Paul referring to with regard to the bold underlined print above Van? You know he is referring to Genesis 1:3. What did God do in Genesis 1:3 He spoke light into existence! In the context of 2 Corinthians 4:1-7 the lost condition is described as being in darkness and it is this command of God that speaks light, metaphorical light - 'the light OF KNOWLEDGE of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ". Do you understand those words? No, you don't so I will break them down in baby bites for you. The "knowledge of the glory of God" God speaks into existence - that is an effectual call of light in darkness. It is the "knowledge" of God that is only seen "in the face of Jesus Christ" meaning when God effectually calls this knowledge into existence within the darkened heart what you SEE in the sense of KNOWING is Jesus Christ as presented in the gospel (vv. 5,7) or SAVING KNOWLEDGE as presented in the gospel but it was not imparted by man (v. 7) because no man can put this knowledge into the heart. It gets in their by divine fiat, effectual calling into existience just as God effectually called literal light into darkness - thus replacing the darkness with light of the gospel in the heart - or a personal experiential knowledge of God through Jesus Christ.

This is the KNOWLEGE Jeremiah speaks about - Jer. 31:33-35 which makes you his people
This is the KNOWLEGE Jesus speaks about - Jn. 17:3 which is eternal life
This is the KNOWLEGE Paul speaks about - 2 Cor. 4:6




Is it because you can't read too good or you just ignore the texts you are quoting? Which is it because clearly deny the gospel preacher has any part (other than bringing it to the external ear) in this internal act of God that produces this saving knowledge in the heart: Read:

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

No one denies that God has chosen and sent preachers to carry the gospel to the EXTERNAL EAR of the elect but that is the furtherest point any man can bring the gospel. INTERNAL REvELATION or speaking it into existence within the heart, or what is an effectual call is God's power alone as in Genesis 1:3.

 

[Van]

Does everyone drawn come to Jesus? No
Was everyone that comes to Jesus drawn? Yes
Is irresistible grace mistaken doctrine? Yes
Is the gospel the power of God to salvation? Yes

Does the gospel offer salvation to everyone who believes? Yes
Has God predetermined who can believe in Christ? Nope
Does Jeremiah 31:33 say "saving knowledge" as claimed? Nope
Does 2 Corinthians 3:3 refer to our witness for Christ as we follow the leading of our indwelt Helper? Yes, Does this or any other verse support "the internal call," that enables belief? Nope
Lastly does 2 Corinthians 4:6-7 refer to the gospel of Christ as "light?" Yes. Does this support in any way the "internal call?" Nope

There is no support whatsoever in scripture for (1) Irresistible grace, (2) the internal call, (4) the gift of faith, or (4) instilled saving knowledge. Before an individual is given (transferred into) Christ, they are chosen through faith in the truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

Does everyone drawn come to Jesus? No

Christ's witnesses define "draw" as an supernatural internal transformation of the heart and "ALL" undergoing that kind of teach do come to Jesus as "ALL thy children....shall have great peace" (Isa. 54:13) and "ALL of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" shall know him due to this INTERAL REVELATION (drawing) - Jer. 31:33-34. I will take the witnesses Christ calls on over your witness (Jn. 6:45 "prophets" plural). So yes, "everyone" having heard and learned in that manner, the manner quoted by Jesus from Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 does come to Christ = every single one. Moreover, he does not draw all men without exception (Jn. 6:64-65) but only all men without distinction of race, class and gender (Jn. 12:20-32 - context).

Does Jeremiah 31:33 say "saving knowledge" as claimed?

It does not say those exact words but it does clearly and explicity demand the answer is yes! Why? Because "ALL" within whom God writes his law upon their hearts God says "shall be my people and I will be their God - ALL of them "from the least of them unto the greatest of them" all shall have their sins forgiven. You deny this and you are simply lying.

Does 2 Corinthians 3:3 refer to our witness for Christ as we follow the leading of our indwelt Helper?

No, it refers to the preaching of the gospel under the new covenant by the POWER of the Spirit who writes his law upon their heart.

Lastly does 2 Corinthians 4:6-7 refer to the gospel of Christ as "light?" Yes. Does this support in any way the "internal call?"

The analogy is used by Paul to introduce this internal revelation is Genesis 1:3 and his EFFECTUAL CALL as he called/spoke into existence light into darkness. By anyone's estimation Genesis 1:3 is an effectual call and that is precisely the comparison Paul makes with how "light of knowledge" occurs in the heart.

Let the readers notice that Van cannot quote and deal with these scriptures in any kind of exegetical or expositional manner but he simply parrots his own heretical opinion as though he is God's final spokesman on the subject.

 

[Van]

Draw as defined in Lexicons, is used metaphorically to indicate attraction by persuasion. In order to pour mistaken doctrine into the text, the meaning of words are redefined to mean what the man-made doctrine requires.

Jeremiah 31:33 demands the answer no, the verse does not indicate "irresistible grace" by another name.
Next we get "all" referring to all those indwelt, mischaracterized as referring to all drawn. Hogwash.

Just read 2 Corinthians 3:3 in context, the witnesses (acting as Paul's "letter") are indwelt believers, thus once again providing no support for the fiction of "irresistible grace."

Genesis 1:3 has God saying "let there be light." This has absolutely nothing to do with the enlightenment provided by the "light of the gospel." All these arguments are simply twaddle.

There is no support anywhere in scripture for (1) irresistible grace, (2) the internal call, (3) the gift of faith, or (4) instilled saving knowledge.

OTOH, Matthew 23:13 demonstrates people can be seeking God (e.g in the process of entering the kingdom) yet their supposed enabling grace is resistible because they we prevented from going in.

So on one hand no actual support indicating the existence of the fiction, but on the other hand evidence the fiction is in fact fiction.